Efren not protecting leads?

[bernie p]

I have had the pleasure of playing Efren just once (recent Derby, 10th round).

I lost the first game (race to 3) and recalled a comment that Scott Frost has relayed to me- that Efren does not like the uptable game.

It's not always possible, but I was able to get almost every ball to at least the center pocket line.

We then had a full one hour of moving for the remainder of that game. It was, without doubt, the most memorable/enjoyable moving game I've ever experienced.(I did get a lead of 5-2, but ending up losing the game).

Don't let anyone kid you......Efren's game in this area is magnificent.....even though it might not be his preference. I suspect his Balkline billiards knowledge has vastly contributed to his exemplary rail first shot making abilities. If you have not witnessed this, I would recommend a youtube video with he and Raymond Cuelemans.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HanjQHbvpU ...very impressive.

Bernie.

 

[straightback]

I have only played Efren in tournaments, but like most here have sweated his matches many, many times. If you won more for shutouts, he would pitch them.

In my experience, and I hope others comment on this, he does not like to embarrass the other player. When the game/session is well in hand, he will ease up a bit or shoot a low percentage creative shot, something he seems to enjoy

I am not suggesting he does not have a killer instinct, his record speaks for itself, but we don't always see the best he has to offer until he needs it.

John, my observation is that he is just "impatient." He just doesnt like long-range strategic games. I think because his offense is (was?) so strong that he really doesn't mind to turn the match into a full-on offensive affair and short-circuit the laborious moving.

It is just amazing that he still plays so good at his age, though. Since 1p tends to deemphasize offense and put a premium on CB control, I suspect he could be competitive in this discipline maybe another ten years. Few champions have remained viable competitors at his age, that's for damn sure!

 

[beatle]

most players send balls up table when they are ahead and do it at the wrong times. as each time you waste a turn hitting a ball away you lose a % of your lead percentage.

 

[straightback]

I have had the pleasure of playing Efren just once (recent Derby, 10th round).

I lost the first game (race to 3) and recalled a comment that Scott Frost has relayed to me- that Efren does not like the uptable game.

It's not always possible, but I was able to get almost every ball to at least the center pocket line.

We then had a full one hour of moving for the remainder of that game. It was, without doubt, the most memorable/enjoyable moving game I've ever experienced.(I did get a lead of 5-2, but ending up losing the game).

Don't let anyone kid you......Efren's game in this area is magnificent.....even though it might not be his preference. I suspect his Balkline billiards knowledge has vastly contributed to his exemplary rail first shot making abilities. If you have not witnessed this, I would recommend a youtube video with he and Raymond Cuelemans.....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HanjQHbvpU ...very impressive.

Bernie.

Bernie, after watching videos of 3c and balkline some years ago, I concluded that a large majority of Efren's "magic" was actually rank and file shots from these disciplines that Americans just don't know about.

 

[vapros]

Beatle, you lost me with that one. I don't understand your comment about sending balls uptable.

 

[androd]

Beatle, you lost me with that one. I don't understand your comment about sending balls uptable.

Bill, Have Dr. Irwin Corey explain it to you.

 

[LSJohn]

Bill, Have Dr. Irwin Corey explain it to you.

Wherever you go, there you are, but if we don't change direction soon, we'll be where we're going.

 

[Scrzbill]

Criticizing the greatest player in the world is like saying Micheal Jordan didnt pass enough. Its a fools errand to say Efren doesnt understand the uptable game. If I had his talents to create shots and pocket balls, I wouldnt care about the uptable game either. Whats the point to this whole thread, TO TRY and find fault with the greatest player of our time? Even Mosconi didnt run 150 every time, does this mean he didnt understand running racks?

 

[petie]

Criticizing the greatest player in the world is like saying Micheal Jordan didnt pass enough. Its a fools errand to say Efren doesnt understand the uptable game. If I had his talents to create shots and pocket balls, I wouldnt care about the uptable game either. Whats the point to this whole thread, TO TRY and find fault with the greatest player of our time? Even Mosconi didnt run 150 every time, does this mean he didnt understand running racks?

We hear a lot of advice about playing the score and playing the table and I agree with most of it. We seldom hear advice about playing the opponent. The truth is that that is just as important as playing the score and sometimes more important than playing the table. I've seen Efren duck and bunt and pass up on shots many times. There is a time for that and a time to go. He goes better than anybody. He also knows who he can get away with it with and who he can't. So should we all.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Could it be that many people misunderstand the goals of the “up table” game. I wonder? How often have each of us been guilty of becoming so defensive while in possession of a decent lead that we stop looking for valid offensive opportunities and find that we now are trying to extricate ourselves from our opponent’s traps. I certainly have. Slowly, they've worked their way back into the game and I wonder where my lead went.

Now each of us must measure, according to our own abilities, just what is a valid offensive opportunity. Efren is constantly searching for these valid, aggressive, opportunities to set traps. He sees things we mortals don’t usually see. His offensive play sometimes gets him into trouble, but it is hard to argue with his success rate.

You can do the same thing. Maybe not to the extent that Efren can, but always seek out the most reasonably profitable shot. That very well may be to send balls north and leave the cue ball frozen on the foot rail. I have learned that before I take that shot, I will look around for something which can do greater damage to my opponent, but with a big lead it will be a shot well within my abilities. Don't be so dead set on adopting the standard "prevent defense" philosophy.

Efren’s offensive posture constantly keeps the pressure on, and creates problems for his opponents, usually forcing them into a defensive posture, and eventually into errors. This is his game philosophy. He manages to keep his opponents off balance much of the time with precise touch and forward thinking. Sure, it backfires sometimes but the odds obviously favors him and he knows it.

It is not my intention to plug my own book, but this is exactly what I advocate within its pages. I don’t mean to suggest we all attempt to play like Efren. That would be nice but unrealistic. What I do advocate is to continue to think aggressively regardless of the score, and like Efren, continue to search for reasonable ways to trap your opponents.

Remember, you need to reach a goal of making eight balls into your pocket. Do not expect your opponent to pocket those last few for you. The better players are not likely to surrender easy shots to you without offering a great deal of resistance. You may be waiting a long time for a gift horse. To temper your enthusiasm to be aggressive may be prudent while enjoying a nice lead, but not to the extent of wearing blinders to the numerous offensive trapping possibilities.

Tom

I'd like to add one more thing. Players line up to play Efren moderate stake games and don't mind taking the worst of it. We saw it happen the other day on a live stream match. That guy had no chance. I didn't see him win a game. Did you? Nick Varner is a great guy. He is a true gentleman and knows One Pocket extremely well. His style we all know of but I ask you, who would you rather play One Pocket with, Nick or Efren? And why? It's a lot more fun! Consider that when playing your next opponent. Style counts for a lot when you are looking for action.

 

[lll]

^^^^^^(see tom's post #30)
well said and great advice......

 

[gulfportdoc]

Could it be that many people misunderstand the goals of the “up table” game. I wonder? How often have each of us been guilty of becoming so defensive while in possession of a decent lead that we stop looking for valid offensive opportunities and find that we now are trying to extricate ourselves from our opponent’s traps. I certainly have. Slowly, they've worked their way back into the game and I wonder where my lead went.
...

That's a very good point, Tom-- one worth remembering. So many times, while protecting a lead, and waiting for the other guy to make a mistake, sometimes he doesn't make that mistake-- and puts YOU in a trap instead. That's probably how those losses occur when you have your opponent 6-0, but he comes back to beat you!

~Doc

 

[bernie p]

Bernie, after watching videos of 3c and balkline some years ago, I concluded that a large majority of Efren's "magic" was actually rank and file shots from these disciplines that Americans just don't know about.

Hi Dan,

I think that's a very good observation.

I've made a point of watching all recent broadcast tourneys that Efren has played in for the last couple of years.

In the early stages of any game, take a few moments to try to guess what shot he is going to shoot. Good luck with that. Even the most seasoned commentators....Incardone, Diliberto, Jones, Frost have a hard time identifying what they think he might/should shoot. These guys have a collective of 150 years of one pocket playing experience between them.....and they are continually surprised at the outcome.

This does'nt tell me that Efren is shooting the "wrong" shot. It simply tells me that the most dominant 1 Pocket player of the last 25 years is clearly many levels above the rest.

All the top 1 Pocket players can run balls, bank, and move at a world class level.....but (and this was your point Dan) the difference is that Efren's extensive years of 15 ball rotation/carom experience has honed his knowledge of what happens when you kick, ticky and billiard shot after shot.....

On a personal level I recognize that my own ball making abilities are very gradually on the decline, and it has inspired me to focus on the finer aspects of this topic.

I guess it's all about staying relevant eh?

Cheers.

Bernie.

 

[straightback]

Hi Dan,

I think that's a very good observation.

I've made a point of watching all recent broadcast tourneys that Efren has played in for the last couple of years.

In the early stages of any game, take a few moments to try to guess what shot he is going to shoot. Good luck with that. Even the most seasoned commentators....Incardone, Diliberto, Jones, Frost have a hard time identifying what they think he might/should shoot. These guys have a collective of 150 years of one pocket playing experience between them.....and they are continually surprised at the outcome.

This does'nt tell me that Efren is shooting the "wrong" shot. It simply tells me that the most dominant 1 Pocket player of the last 25 years is clearly many levels above the rest.

All the top 1 Pocket players can run balls, bank, and move at a world class level.....but (and this was your point Dan) the difference is that Efren's extensive years of 15 ball rotation/carom experience has honed his knowledge of what happens when you kick, ticky and billiard shot after shot.....

On a personal level I recognize that my own ball making abilities are very gradually on the decline, and it has inspired me to focus on the finer aspects of this topic.

I guess it's all about staying relevant eh?

Cheers.

Bernie.

Bernie, my take on Efren is this: true genius in many disciplines and academia often comes from sources without. That is, when one is not shackled by the expectations and established dogma of a knowledge base, they approach it with their own toolbox, not one handed to them by their particular community.

In Efren's case, he's a Pinoy and their thought systems and logic are decidedly non-Western. That may seem like a minor point, but I think just coming from a culture that is not the one that birthed one pocket makes a difference. (For instance, in terms of very general strategy, he may adopt more Eastern philosophies - think Sun Tzu, for instance.)

More pointedly, he came up playing games that we just don't play. (Hell, outside of the 2007 Derby, I have never laid eyes on a billiard table!) Rotation, balkline and three cushion all highly emphasize very precise cue ball control and kicking. Thus, one pocket is just a natural for Efren to excel at. We marvel at his shot selections because we do not do the things that would allow us to get good at them.

To tie this in to our thread, I've said it before and it bears mentioning again: Efren has rarely been forced to pinch and squeeze because he has so many other weapons with which he can short-circuit the protracted games. Perhaps this will change a bit as he ages, who knows?

No matter what he does, you can be sure he will always remain the most interesting player to watch!

 

[Island Drive]

My thinking is Efren sees every table layout as one entity with skirmish areas here and there. By doing this he's like an octopus. While he's backin' up, he's coming at ya from another angle, one you don't see ah comin'. I remember when I used to listen to the Old School 14.1 players talk about board safe play. Once they got you in a certain position on the table, it was nearly impossible to not give up the first shot, or take 3 fouls.

 

[Billy Jackets]

Chess and one pocket have many similarities, and I suggest young players should try to learn to play a decent chess game to compliment their one pocket.
One of the things I'm sure Efren has learned, is that no matter what the board or table looks like, there are strengths and weaknesses , opportunities and pitfalls for both players.
Think of the times you have been watching a game and 1 player is just dominating the whole game.
He has 7 balls, knocks the game ball up near his hole.
Now his opponent makes a great shot , gets a little fortunate and gets a good roll and all of a sudden, he's out from no where.
I've done it , I've had it happen to me , I've seen it against weaker players and I've seen it against champions.
You are never as safe as you might think you are!
That doesn't mean you play scared or shoot the wrong shots , it just means you are always aware that no matter how good your position looks , your opponent always seems to have one "shot" that can turn it all around.
It's strange that in chess , they are also called "shots".
In my mind , Efren just see's a lot more of these potential winners ,{for both sides} than everyone else.
If you think of chess positions , having a space advantage,{balls near your hole or on your side of the table} or being farther ahead in developement ,{moving multiple balls each shot instead of one} great chess players know exactly how to take advantage of these situations , I would bet that Efren breaks the game of one pocket down the same way to some extent and when the odds favor him , he does what the table dictates should be done.
I used to play partners 1 pocket with an ex champion , we would get ahead in a game and he would shoot some tough shot and sometimes he made them sometimes he didn't , but I tried to tell him to lay off those shots , we were the favorites in the game but only if we won the games we were supposed to.
He told me "I can't let the table play me , I have to play it"!
I knew what he meant and even though I thought it was wrong , I respected his attitude about it.
I wonder if Efren will have the same problem , or if he will be able to adjust his game and learn to win playing a different game?
I know he has all the capabilities in the world, unless his eyes go bad , or he gets sick or injured , I see no reason why he can't keep winning for many more years.

 

[baby huey]

Another thing about Efren, that is different than other great players, is that he will play you for cheap. I mean for a hundred or two and even though you'll probably have the worst of it, where else can you play the best in the world for cheap money? He is here to play pool period. His days for playing tough action for big money are now far and few between. Don't get me wrong he will gamble but he plays less often for serious cash. You can't just go up and play the champ for cheap money in any other endeavor.