The Two Greatest One Pocket Player's of the last 40 Years might Finally Match Up!

[MARK..HOU TX]

Your makin waaaaay to much sense Lenny.

 

[philip guagliardo]

hi

hi

Nice post Lenny !

I think whats lacking on this site is trust in anothers experiences on what they have done in their life or what they have seen in their life .

I will say this one more time and if any of you ever meet someone that knows me personally you can ask them if I ever stretch the truth !! I oppose lying more than any of you can imagine and have always been truthful in my life . I also only worship GOD , but I do give credit where it is do to all poolplayers or even horseplayers that excelled far more than others .

Yes i'm a Chicago guy , but that doesn't make any difference in my opinion because of the above stated !!

I seen Freddy beat players and I seen Artie B all my life !

I owned the Northshore Billiards with Freddy & Bobby Wilkinson and my job was to keep order and Freddy was the promoter and Bobby was the host .

I watched Artie devour every top player that came into the hottest gambling poolroom in the country at that time and watched guys like Allen Hopkins sit on a bench and just avoid Artie and never even consider matching up !! That must mean he knew his game considering he wasn't from Chicago , one could ask how did he know not to play Artie B !! Its simple great players knew about that guy Artie B and passed that along and word of mouth goes to all areas in the USA . The reason he was known is because he busted top players and they snitched him off !! I think just so some of you doubters can find the real truth the next time you go to a tournament go ask players like Buddy Hall & Nick Varner and ask Allen if i'm lying . its apparent that Billy's word is not any good because he as verified stories about Artie B !! So get some more if you run into the mentioned guys !!

Dick I know your friends with R A a great player and let me make this clear he was no stranger to Chicago and he knew where the action was and never played any top player BUGS OR ARTIE B in Chicago !! I know he played Bugs somewhere else , but playing them in Chicago and winning would very rewarding . He mainly went bar hustling !! I'm sure your right that he could have gotten staked in L.A , but as far as me going to stake a game just to have a bigger opportunity to make a score was out of the question . I went that one time on a whim because Freddy asked me if I would bring him some cash and dragged Artie B with me !! NO NO NO Ronnie wolfed big time and kind of got me hot calling Chicago players nits and that's when I jumped up and told him he could get down for whatever he wanted . Freddy is wrong about my bankroll though I only had about 20 k but plenty more that he could have gotten down for if he chose just too with that game he offered where I would bet parts of my body that Artie would win at . I was never a backer and only in that situation would I consider risking my HORSE money that is close to my heart . I do not disrespect Ronnies game , but he was way out of line and just looking for a game because he was empty and some chance is better than no chance when your on the road and empty .

I said this before I think many on here just don't like Braggers and I just don't understand that at all . I mean what are you suppose to do elaborate on all your losses and not share your wins . Now Artie B can not do the first part because he won at a rate like NO other player ever that I know of in my long life of being around gamblers .

My God nobody played Bugs more than Artie B and he was the winner for years with Bugs that alone should tell anyone on earth he was one of the best ever and those of you that call him a hacker today or one of them other deragatory remarks are just wrong for disparaging a great player because he quit the game early and got old .

I don't know why I bother repeating the truth , but just maybe some of you will act accordingly to great players of the past !!

I heard you were one hell of a player Dick and really don't understand your view on these things .

I also heard that you lost your love and you have my deepest sympathy and I know the feeling . I lost my love last year my Mother the only woman that ever deserved my total love .

Phil Oops postime at the Meadowlands in 25 minutes BY !

 

[androd]

I will say this one more time and if any of you ever meet someone that knows me personally you can ask them if I ever stretch the truth !! I oppose lying more than any of you can imagine and have always been truthful in my life .

Those of you that call him a hacker today or one of them other deragatory remarks are just wrong for disparaging a great player because he quit the game early and got old .
Phil Oops postime at the Meadowlands in 25 minutes BY !

Phil, since you like the truth so much you shouldn't be upset that I called him, among many, hackers. I never said he couldn't play at one time. As far as quiting early, his choice. As far as getting old, it's gonna happen to us all. You didn't mention poor health, but he usually does and that's regrettable. I happen to be an old hacker myself and never considered the term derogatory. When you can't play anymore thats what you are. Yes I watched him play in Galveston for a few hours and he and his opponent where both hacking at'em.
Rod.

 

[androd]

YES I DO. How about YOU? I just like to see if thier bite is as bad as thier bark.

At 65 I'm also available to play my NITCH game!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

Yes I do also. About 15 or 20 hrs. per week.
at 72 I'm also available to play my NICHE game!

ANYBODY on this site can get a 1 and 1, I don't need a spot, any time your heart starts pumping again!

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

Bill I'm a little to old to go to tournaments or travel much. If your book business ever brings you to Houston I'd enjoy meeting you and playing one pocket. I will play some races to one for however much you'd like, within reason of course. more than enough to defer the cost of your trip. Will play 3 or 4 hrs. for sure.
Rod.

 

[jazznpool]

Lenny, let me relate to you when I first saw Artie. He stopped by the room I hung out in East Detroit (now Eastpointe) called "Playland." He came with a room regular and good shortstop, Mike Sardelli, who I assumed was probably trying to steer him. This was in the fall of 1979 or maybe 1980. I asked a solid player, gambler, and one pocket mentor-friend of mine, Tommy Lazlo, "who is that guy?" Tommy said: "oh, that's Chicago Artie, he plays champion speed one pocket." For your reference, I'd say Tommy played one pocket about Bernie P's speed and would gamble relatively high--so he wasn't a poolroom knucklehead. I did not watch Artie play but I know there was high respect for him at that time because other players would reference him. I would have assumed he was in town to play at the Rack N Cue or maybe bar table pool in Hamtramck. Although I had not met or watched Bugs, Ronnie Allen or Grady up to this point, I had heard about them too. My point here is that Artie was known (and feared) at that time well before the Internet. I believe Artie is indeed worthy of the One Pocket Hall of Fame. I'll add that I have great respect for SJD and Freddy and greatly enjoy their contributions and recollections.

Martin

I have only been playing pool for around 6-7 years so I guess I am still wet behind the ears. I still feel that since I have submerged myself fully into the game for a bit now I have a right to post some stuff with you legends. Some of you may be too stubborn to listen to Lenny because you have socks older then me but that is okay too.

I think many people on the west cost knew of Dick years ago, he took his hiatus and new players came around. As for Freddy he was from Chicago as was Artie, I am sure in that area both are very well known but are they well know on the west coast back before the age of the internutz.

Before I moved to AZ I lived in NY and when I got into one pocket which believe it or not was 1 year or so into my pool playing, I read a book. I read Eddie Robins book which an older guy loaned me and in it was San Jose Dick, I remembered his name because he was mentioned many times in it. I do not know if it was God or the devil who sent me here to AZ but I will tell you this it is interesting to meet people like Dick whom I read about, and also Scott Frost who is the best one pocket player in the US, its really great to be here.

I do think many people know Freddy because of the age of the internet and Freddy having his site and being in the mix with the One Pocket HOF and Banks HOF, so yes more people know Freddy. More people actually probably know me because of my site then Dick but what does that really mean?, Dick is playing terribly and can still spot me 9-7 so my notoriety means nothing. I do plan on taking 9-7 and the breaks next time me and Dick are in a pool room and issuing some torture on him.

As for Artie I think he is was not very well known until Freddy posted about him and he got active on here and AZ Billiards. I think the sad part we are over looking is that players of today regardless if they are top flight are getting more recognition because of the internet, the players of the past are talked about in threads here and there but before the info age most just were lost to time unfortunately. I might be rambling but I am sure you can find something in my post that makes sense. I just think its all relative to where you lived or the times as they were then and are now.

I have seen Freddy's list and think its impressive but was curious if he beat all of these guys even or not, to me that is important. I would like to see a list with what the spots were giving or getting and whom he played even along with what game. I can say I beat Scott Frost but if I am getting 11-5 it does not mean very much. What about SJD, I know he has played some good players too, but what was he giving or getting, in his prime who spotted him and who was he spotting?

Well gotta run and make some pasta, cant drink until after 8pm, I am half Irish and half Italian so I like both of you guys. I still would like to see a game with both of you, banks, one pocket and perhaps last pocket 8 ball at DCC.

 

[mr3cushion]

Yes I do also. About 15 or 20 hrs. per week.
at 72 I'm also available to play my NICHE game!






Bill I'm a little to old to go to tournaments or travel much. If your book business ever brings you to Houston I'd enjoy meeting you and playing one pocket. I will play some races to one for however much you'd like, within reason of course. more than enough to defer the cost of your trip. Will play 3 or 4 hrs. for sure.
Rod.

Rod; you have a niche game and so do I, I'll play you one pocket even, and 3cush even may be one of us will get lucky and beat the other at thier niche game, or break even. we can play some 4 0f 7 sets 1p and 35 pts 3c for $500.00 each. Nobody will get hurt that way.

Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

 

[Terry Ardeno]

Amazing

Amazing

"......nobody played Bugs more than Artie B and he was the winner for years with Bugs that alone should tell anyone on earth he was one of the best ever..... "

Phil,
That's such a strong sentence! Again, I'm not saying I'm doubting your word, cause I'm not. I believe you're a straight shooter. But I had NEVER heard of Artie, let alone him being THAT strong!

It's just amazing that someone who played at that level wasn't more known or famous. Someone else (earlier in this thread I think) mentioned Cooney. Many of us had HEARD that there was a "Jack Cooney" running around somewhere rampaging unsuspecting players. But, from my part of the woods at least, not even a peep about A.B.

I've heard of Bugs for years and years. Same w/ R.A. I had heard about SJD, and the Beard, Grady and Billy. But I never heard the name Artie B before the Beard mentioned him. And Buddy, Nick and Allen Hopkins and all them other guys that Artie beat, I heard of them for years and years. But I just never, ever heard of or about Artie.

He has to have been the all-time best kept secret in pool!

Good luck at the races Phil! And thanks for an informative post.

 

[vapros]

Here's a suggestion. Believe whatever the hell you want, but keep it a secret. Don't let the others know.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis , Your not a knocker ? It seems like that's what you were doing about the match by sharing your opinion more or less that it would suck !! I guess we all have the right to discredit former top players and i'm sure we could do that in all sports . Your opinion on people you never seen play and how they will be remember is worth about 2 cents in yen . I guess you think Mosconi - Greenleaf - Worst - Bugs won't be remembered and your right they won't be remembered by you , but there will be a lot of players that will read about them in the future just as other sports figures like Snead & Hogan !! Get my point ! Just because you won't that doesn't mean other won't . You like to give your opinion and I like to give mine and its nothing new to me because I also chat on a horse forum where posters have an opinion even though they haven't a clue what their talking about . I'm glad your happy with yourself and have money in the bank and you work even though I didn't need to know all that and i'm more concerned why you think seeing two great players would have been bad . I enjoyed Mosconi & Fats playing each other even though they were over the hill !!! But thats me , and I kind of love watching superstars even when there OLD .

You kind of make me feel bad because my friend Jimmy Mataya introduced me as a racetrack legend in chicago to some guys I probably never will see again at the Cub game the other night !! Oh well I hope they remember me for at least a week !! I have to be blunt !! Your just not a nice fella , but no hard feelings I have met a lot of guys like you that refuse to give credit and find reasons not too . I hate to say all this but , you know I have an opinion too

Phil

You know its possible that others don't live in your world or mine !

Oh by the way why don't you suggest to Steve who puts these players in the one pocket hall of fame so they will be remembered to just stop because its all in vain !! Nobody will remember them according to you !

Phil,

The match would be a joke, I stand by that opinion. Fats & Mosconi were not gambling when they played on tv, they were there to entertain us. I also stand by everything I wrote in post #24. In time AB will be remembered as most men are, for the greatest thing he ever did. He went to Vegas and beat the casinos at their own game. 4 or 5 guys on this site constantly reminding us of his greatness in pool won't change that either. You guys can post till hell freezes over and it won't change history. The point you made was that he will be remembered for pool and that's not correct.

I've also never disparaged or questioned his talent or abilities in his prime. I know that some stone-cold champions avoided him like the plague. That's a testament to his speed but also to theirs.

As to your comment that I'm not a nice fella, I've had dealings with AB on this site and he's not a nice fella either. I don't disparage people who don't do it to me first. What is the point?

P.S. You say I refuse to give credit: re-read post #24 and you'll see that that is not correct.

Bottom line is this: RA will be remembered for being among the greatest poolplayers ever, AB will be remembered for busting out the casinos, if that. You can't change that, but it's only my opinion.

By the way Phil, I do like your writing style and the way you make your points, to a degree anyway. You've kept it civil and that's a testament to your character. I do respect that.

P.SS. I have been a student of the history of this game and have read much about all of the old-time champions from the 1800's and through the 1900's.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

BTW, I'm just curious about what ever happened to matches that were agreed to with him MANY months ago from CD to play for $10,000.00 and SJD to play for the same amount. You all know his speed now, helpless, one tenth of what it used to be. But He'll still play. Maybe he has to be in a wheel-chair for these guys to step up.



Bill Smith "Mr3Cushion"

Bill,

If you want to know what happened(or didn't happen) just search the forums and find the posts, it's all on record. I don't owe you an explanation for anything.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

My God nobody played Bugs more than Artie B and he was the winner for years with Bugs that alone should tell anyone on earth he was one of the best ever and those of you that call him a hacker today or one of them other deragatory remarks are just wrong for disparaging a great player because he quit the game early and got old .

I don't know why I bother repeating the truth , but just maybe some of you will act accordingly to great players of the past !!

I heard you were one hell of a player Dick and really don't understand your view on these things .

Good post Phil. I can tolerate you, (or anyone) sticking by their homey's. I guess the thing that has tripped my trigger was the incessant bragging, and holier than thou attitude of BOTH Freddy and Artie. (and also Mr. Butinski 3Cushion)

I was never a world beater, nor did I ever try to act like one. I tried to take my wins and losses, and move on to the next game. All I know is, ANYBODY who came to my town, got action (from '60 to '73, and from '93, to just a few years ago)

The only thing I know for sure is, Artie travelled west one time, that I know of, and got beat (on a 5 X 10 no less) by a young Grady Matthews. That is certainly no sin, but why is that swept under the rug ? It is the whole point of my argument.
At that time, I probably could have given Grady a very tough game, in fact I may have been the favorite. That being said, I knew of quite a few players I admittedly, could not beat, at that time. So where does that put Mr. AB ?
If Artie somehow emerged into the greatest "perfect, mistake free" one pocket player that ever lived, I just wish that he had stepped up and played someplace BESIDES his home court. That would have given him the credibility that he, and you (and Freddy) seem to crave.

You make some sensible arguments in his favor Phil. If some of the balloon headed, egotistical jerks on this forum, could express themselves like you, there would be NO pissing contest.

Meanwhile, NO ONE WILL EVER KNOW...and that ain't gonna change. At least not in my eyes, or the hundreds of people who never even heard of Artie Bodendorfer or San Jose Dick.

Peace, and good luck with the nags.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I have seen Freddy's list and think its impressive but was curious if he beat all of these guys even or not, to me that is important. I would like to see a list with what the spots were giving or getting and whom he played even along with what game.

Lenny,


If I'm not mistaken, Freddy has made clear on many occasions that his list contains people that he beat at least one time, playing even. This fact always seems to get lost in the hullabuloo surrounding the list(which is great pub for Freddy). If somebody beat Freddy 10 times and Freddy beat them once they are on the list. He's never stated otherwise. As to the games that were played, I don't know. Freddy did play all games.

Dennis

 

[onepocket]

I am going to lock this thread for the weekend out of respect for SJD's other priorities. This is my own decision and not anything suggested by anyone else. I am ok with reopening it after the weekend. In the mean time, I do get the last word

All the past votes and inductees into the One Pocket & Banks HOF are already final, however, moving forward I am open to suggestions on how to improve the selection and recognition process -- especially if you are willing to actually help. I, for one, am very proud of the players in there. ALL very well represent the heart and soul of One Pocket & Banks. Both One Pocket & Banks fall in to a pool tradition that bridges racial lines and celebrates action and character (some would say characters -- but lets say "personality" instead). Many of these guys labored most of their pool careers in so much action, to the exclusion of tournaments, that they have gone unrecognized by the mainstream billiard establishment and media, and late in their lives, this recognition means a lot to them and their families, friends and fans. That is something I am proud to be part of.