Sylver Ochoa vs. Mike Surber 2009 DCC

[Cowboy Dennis]

Probably because the 1 ball did not bank cleanly. My guess is he would have had to load it up with inside English to avoid the kiss or it wasn't makeable. I am pretty sure if it was just a matter of him playing it pocket speed to his hole he would have shot it. Sylver banks really well so he wouldn't pass up an easy bank for a more difficult one.
I played Sylver getting 10-7 race to 4 after he won the Hardtimes tournament for $300 a set and I won 2 sets.
I played Cole Dixon a couple of days ago giving him 10-8 for $100 a game and after a long session we broke even.
The great thing about playing great players is I always seem to learn something new by observing what they do and don't do.

The 1 ball was at least one inch and maybe closer to two inches off the end rail. Ochoa didn't even look at the shot for a second. Who knows why people do what they do? The 1 ball was the shot, no doubt at all in my opinion but things aren't always what they seem on a T.V..

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

As it turned out, Ochoa missed the bank long, and stopped his rock right about where the eleven was. Mike then had a reasonable two-railer on the one, which he passed up. Instead Mike tried to thin bank the eleven to his side of the table. Unfortunately he pocketed the eleven cross corner, giving Ochoa a routine straight back for the win. I never got to ask Mike why he passed up the two-railer on the one.

Doc

Doc,

Sylver missed the "routine straight-back" for the win. It didn't even make it to the end-rail. Mike then 5-railed it and missed leaving Sylver a cross-corner that he made.

The commentators said that the 2-railer on the 1 ball laid a little funny. I got the impression that Mike would have to hit it harder and with follow and maybe that's why he passed it up.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I agree, Sylver should have and would have banked the 1 ball, if it was laying right.

Billy I.

Things can look different on a T.V. Bill, but I guarantee you that if you saw this layout and then saw him pass it up without even glancing at it you would think he was crazy. The 1 ball was at least one inch off the rail and maybe a little more.

Dennis

 

[gulfportdoc]

Doc, Sylver missed the "routine straight-back" for the win. It didn't even make it to the end-rail. Mike then 5-railed it and missed leaving Sylver a cross-corner that he made.

That's correct. I recalled the wrong out shot. ~Doc

 

[gulfportdoc]

I agree, Sylver should have and would have banked the 1 ball, if it was laying right. Mike is not an upper echelon shot maker, and if the bank was lying well enough for him to play pocket speed and controll whitey, he would of done it. If he missed the bank, Mike would of had a hard decision to make in shooting the tough shot on the 11 ball. Chances are that the 1 ball may have been a free shot, providing it was lying well for Sylver, considering the circumstances.

Billy, I think you meant Sylver is not... I don't know about Ochoa, but Mike certainly was an upper echelon shot maker. Mike would have been a favorite to make any of the shots that we've been discussing... and then some.

Doc

 

[fred bentivegna]

Not everybody....

Not everybody....

unless you were efren playing freddy thats how you "pay your dues " o r have them paid to you.
freedy you have said efren learned 1p from you
BUT you also said you would shoot the wrong shot so he wouldnt learn

...is as diabolical as me. Why should I voluntarily teach him when we are gambling and he is trying to beat me?

Beard

 

[lll]

...is as diabolical as me. Why should I voluntarily teach him when we are gambling and he is trying to beat me?

Beard

so when efren shoots the "wrong" shot should we give you credit?

 

[fred bentivegna]

Why not?

Why not?

so when efren shoots the "wrong" shot should we give you credit?

If you have noticed when I commentate on his games, I make it a point to highlight those areas, where for example, he keeps moving with a big lead, rather than take balls out of play and lock up the game. When I broadcast his match with Alex in the semi's, I said he screwed up not taking a makeable cross corner out of play, which Alex made, ran 8 and out, winning the match and leaving Effie in the one hole. When I played Effren I always made taking balls out of play with the lead, appear to be a "cowardly" thing to do. Nobody likes to think of themself as a coward, right?

Beard

 

[lll]

When I played Effren I always made taking balls out of play with the lead, appear to be a "cowardly" thing to do. Nobody likes to think of themself as a coward, right?

Beard

good move freddy

 

[wincardona]

If you have noticed when I commentate on his games, I make it a point to highlight those areas, where for example, he keeps moving with a big lead, rather than take balls out of play and lock up the game. When I broadcast his match with Alex in the semi's, I said he screwed up not taking a makeable cross corner out of play, which Alex made, ran 8 and out, winning the match and leaving Effie in the one hole. When I played Effren I always made taking balls out of play with the lead, appear to be a "cowardly" thing to do. Nobody likes to think of themself as a coward, right?

Beard

I never realized that you were really this sick, i've heard stories but dismissed them because I like you, but i'm really starting to wonder. Please stop, if you can.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

...is as diabolical as me. Why should I voluntarily teach him when we are gambling and he is trying to beat me?

Beard

You just might be the best ever. I guess you had time to shoot the wrong shots to mislead him to believing that they were the right shots, and you still beat him. How long did you shoot the wrong shots? once ? 20 times? a day ? a week? a month? Did you ever have to shoot the right shots to beat him?

Do you realize that you may of been the only person to have ever beat him? And you were intentionally shooting wrong shots, to keep him confused. WOW.

That's just one reason why i'm going to stake you at the DCC.

Billy I.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

When I broadcast his match with Alex in the semi's, I said he screwed up not taking a makeable cross corner out of play, which Alex made, ran 8 and out, winning the match and leaving Effie in the one hole.

Beard

Might you be referring to this game?

http://onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43117&postcount=7

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOCD3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4XOCD4XRMf4XbRY2XLhi2XbAh6XQbL4kJcL4kMeo4kJde3qUbeTHIS_IS_THE_SHOT_THAT_EFREN_PLAYED_TO_LEAVE_ALEX_THE_LAYOUT_I_POSTED.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

You just might be the best ever. I guess you had time to shoot the wrong shots to mislead him to believing that they were the right shots, and you still beat him. How long did you shoot the wrong shots? once ? 20 times? a day ? a week? a month? Did you ever have to shoot the right shots to beat him?

Do you realize that you may of been the only person to have ever beat him? And you were intentionally shooting wrong shots, to keep him confused. WOW.

That's just one reason why i'm going to stake you at the DCC.

Billy I.

Bill, stop it, you're killing me .

 

[wincardona]

Billy, I think you meant Sylver is not... I don't know about Ochoa, but Mike certainly was an upper echelon shot maker. Mike would have been a favorite to make any of the shots that we've been discussing... and then some.

Doc

Not to argue this point Doc, but with the cue ball close to or frozen to the back rail, and carrying a cut angle on the 11 ball in the position it's in, you better be an upper echelon shot maker if you're going to shoot it. And there aren't too many of those guys around. I know a lot of top players that wouldn't shoot it, considering the projected circumstances. Never meant to discredit Mike, I know he was a top player.

You must also consider that Mike was already trailing in games won 1 to 0, so shooting the tough shot on the 11 ball now carries more pressure for him to deal with. Think about it.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

Might you be referring to this game?

http://onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43117&postcount=7

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOCD3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4XOCD4XRMf4XbRY2XLhi2XbAh6XQbL4kJcL4kMeo4kJde3qUbeTHIS_IS_THE_SHOT_THAT_EFREN_PLAYED_TO_LEAVE_ALEX_THE_LAYOUT_I_POSTED.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

I could be mistaken, but if this is close to the layout there are only 2 shots that are available, and shooting the 5 ball isn't one of them.I would either shoot the 4 ball and follow the cue ball taking the 5 ball out of play as a counter move for my opponent. Or I would shoot the 9 ball into the 6 ball and move both balls away from AP hole and reposition the cue ball under the 4 ball. The latter would be my first choice if available.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

Bill, stop it, you're killing me .

I hope not, there's a lot more to come, so stick around for the rest.Take a blood pressure pill. And look at this from another prospective, and try to learn.

Billy I.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

...if this is close to the layout...The latter would be my first choice if available.

Billy I.

It is & it was.

 

[wincardona]

I could be mistaken, but if this is close to the layout there are only 2 shots that are available, and shooting the 5 ball isn't one of them.I would either shoot the 4 ball and follow the cue ball taking the 5 ball out of play as a counter move for my opponent. Or I would shoot the 9 ball into the 6 ball and move both balls away from AP hole and reposition the cue ball under the 4 ball. The latter would be my first choice if available.

Billy I.

Shooting the 4 ball and following the cue ball behind the 6 and 9 ball is a good shot, but it gives Pag a two railer on the 15 ball that will offer him the ability to controll the cue ball, and reposition it near the rail, by the back right pocket. A place where Reyes wouldn't want to be leading 7 balls to none. That's why my choice would be to shoot the 6/9 combo and drop under the 4 ball.

Billy I.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

That's why my choice would be to shoot the 6/9 combo and drop under the 4 ball.

Billy I.

Bill,

Did a Duck just call you?

http://onepocket.org/forum/showpost.php?p=43153&postcount=12

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOKE3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4aTOw4aSpy4abQu3aSpU3aUER4dPPB4dSAv1daoV4kJcL4kMmG4kNkE4kSjj@[/CUETABLE]

 

[fred bentivegna]

You're a funny guy

You're a funny guy

You just might be the best ever. I guess you had time to shoot the wrong shots to mislead him to believing that they were the right shots, and you still beat him. How long did you shoot the wrong shots? once ? 20 times? a day ? a week? a month? Did you ever have to shoot the right shots to beat him?

Do you realize that you may of been the only person to have ever beat him? And you were intentionally shooting wrong shots, to keep him confused. WOW.

That's just one reason why i'm going to stake you at the DCC.

Billy I.

That actually was very funny. I wisely usually saved those "bad" shots for when I had a big advantage and I could get away with them. Plus many of those times when I was forced to shoot the "right" shot I never did it with authority. I would hem and haw and make believe that it was the toughest decision of my life, rather than an automatic. That was another part of the "training."

On trick banks, I would start out with one side english and switch at the end, whenever I caught him watching closely.

Beard

Hoping that the Lord will show people like me and you , and especially Artie, forgiveness in the hereafter.