Sylver Ochoa vs. Mike Surber 2009 DCC

[One Pocket Ghost]

I could be mistaken, but if this is close to the layout there are only 2 shots that are available, and shooting the 5 ball isn't one of them.I would either shoot the 4 ball and follow the cue ball taking the 5 ball out of play as a counter move for my opponent. Or I would shoot the 9 ball into the 6 ball and move both balls away from AP hole and reposition the cue ball under the 4 ball. The latter would be my first choice if available.

Billy I.

Billy.....not purposely looking to debate you.....but it always get's my attention when people make definitive or blanket statements...people love to do this, but 9 times out of ten they're incorrect......as to your statement (bolded) - there is in fact, more than "only 2 (good) shots available"...I've diagrammed a third choice - softly grazing off the inside of the 9 and going 2 rails for the frozen snooker...it also protects the 5ball, which is key here - it is simple to execute, and I would strive to also tie up the 6 and 9 in shooting this shot...

Pro's and con's >>>

Your shot choice of shooting the 9 into the 6 has the plus of removing those 2 balls - but the downside is that the shooter could possibly slightly lose the cueball and bump the 4, or scratch or leave a window to the five...

My option doesn't achieve the removal of the 6 and 9, (you may succeed in tying them up though) - but it's an easier and safer cueball execution...

Either shot could be chosen.

- Ghost

PS, Ignore the residual purple track of the 4ball from Dennis's original diagram.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOCD3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4XOCD4XRMf4XbRY2XLhi2XbAh6XQbL4dPPB4dQtn4kJcL4kPHK4kcQA4kWCp4kQOL3qUbeTHIS_IS_THE_SHOT_THAT_EFREN_PLAYED_TO_LEAVE_ALEX_THE_LAYOUT_I_POSTED.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

 

[gulfportdoc]

Not to argue this point Doc, but with the cue ball close to or frozen to the back rail, and carrying a cut angle on the 11 ball in the position it's in, you better be an upper echelon shot maker if you're going to shoot it. And there aren't too many of those guys around. I know a lot of top players that wouldn't shoot it, considering the projected circumstances. Never meant to discredit Mike, I know he was a top player.

You must also consider that Mike was already trailing in games won 1 to 0, so shooting the tough shot on the 11 ball now carries more pressure for him to deal with. Think about it.

If the 1-ball laid close to the way it's illustrated here, then I think that's the correct shot. The CB must end up frozen, or nearly frozen or nearly so, and the 1-ball must be either pocketed or very close to the pocket. I said I'd pop the 11-ball in simply because I have unhumanly superior banking skills, and would be a big favorite at the DCC bank pool tournament...

As it turned out, Ochoa shot the 11-ball bank and missed.

The match should have been 1-0 in Surber's favor at that point anyhow. If you remember, Mike thought he was to play Ochoa bank pool, and had been warming up all morning practicing banks with his bank stick. When he got to the table to rack the balls for 9-ball banks, Ochoa went up to him and gave Mike the bad news. Mike said he never got into 1p stroke for at least two games...

Doc

 

[wincardona]

Billy.....not purposely looking to debate you.....but it always get's my attention when people make definitive or blanket statements...people love to do this, but 9 times out of ten they're incorrect......as to your statement (bolded) - there is in fact, more than "only 2 (good) shots available"...I've diagrammed a third choice - softly grazing off the inside of the 9 and going 2 rails for the frozen snooker...it also protects the 5ball, which is key here - it is simple to execute, and I would strive to also tie up the 6 and 9 in shooting this shot...

Pro's and con's >>>

Your shot choice of shooting the 9 into the 6 has the plus of removing those 2 balls - but the downside is that the shooter could possibly slightly lose the cueball and bump the 4, or scratch or leave a window to the five...

My option doesn't achieve the removal of the 6 and 9, (you may succeed in tying them up though) - but it's an easier and safer cueball execution...

Either shot could be chosen.

- Ghost

PS, Ignore the residual purple track of the 4ball from Dennis's original diagram.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOCD3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4XOCD4XRMf4XbRY2XLhi2XbAh6XQbL4dPPB4dQtn4kJcL4kPHK4kcQA4kWCp4kQOL3qUbeTHIS_IS_THE_SHOT_THAT_EFREN_PLAYED_TO_LEAVE_ALEX_THE_LAYOUT_I_POSTED.&ZZ@[/CUETABLE]

If you noticed I said that my choice would be the 6/9 combo, moving both balls, IF AVAILABLE. If it wasn't available your shot now becomes an option that I didn't consider, because I thought my shot was available. If my shot is available, then shooting any other shot is imo not nearly as productive. When I say if it's available, I mean that after executing the shot the cue ball will be behind the 4 ball.

Billy I.

 

[blackeee]

The situation is Ochoa up 1-0 in games and 7-6 in balls in the second game. Which bank would you shoot from here? It is Ochoa's shot.

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@2AQvc3BUPL4CFVM3DOsK3EReL4FHyM3GMPL3HEXK3IJmK4JKkM4Kafp4LSTL4MPqL4NNNL3OHJK2PQem3Qcht@[/CUETABLE]

I think the 11 is the best choice. If you shoot the one in might bobble in the hole and go cross table or get in a position that leaves you're opponent a free shot on the 11. Plus the fact needing 1, you don't need both balls down table.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

If you noticed I said that my choice would be the 6/9 combo, moving both balls, IF AVAILABLE. If it wasn't available your shot now becomes an option that I didn't consider, because I thought my shot was available. If my shot is available, then shooting any other shot is imo not nearly as productive. When I say if it's available, I mean that after executing the shot the cue ball will be behind the 4 ball.

Billy I.

I wasn't talking about the availability of your shot, or the lack thereof, in my post...

The two points of my post were to display the third shot-choice option...and also to address the fact that you said, and I quote: "there are only 2 shots that are available"...when this statement of yours was quite obviously incorrect and needed correcting since my shot was also available.

- Ghost

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

PS, Ignore the residual purple track of the 4ball from Dennis's original diagram.

What residual purple track???

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@1AYjy3BVeL3CSsL4DOCD3EarY4FTOw3GQXL1HEQI4IPPB3JNuL4KCHJ3LGDL3MLJL3NIgL1OEsa4PJcL4QdGx4dPPB4dQtn4kJcL4kPHK4kcQA4kWCp4kQOL@[/CUETABLE]

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

It's a genuine damn miracle that we are discussing two different layouts in this thread and nobody yet has confused the two. Kudos to everybody .

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

I think the 11 is the best choice. If you shoot the one in might bobble in the hole and go cross table or get in a position that leaves you're opponent a free shot on the 11. Plus the fact needing 1, you don't need both balls down table.

Keith,

If you shoot the 1 ball with pocket speed it should lay near the pocket if you should miss it. Nobody in their right mind (except the other Keith) would shoot the 11 ball from the end-rail with the 1 ball near your pocket.

Dennis

 

[wincardona]

I wasn't talking about the availability of your shot, or the lack thereof, in my post...

The two points of my post were to display the third shot-choice option...and also to address the fact that you said, and I quote: "there are only 2 shots that are available"...when this statement of yours was quite obviously incorrect and needed correcting since my shot was also available.

- Ghost

Taking an intentional and putting him behind the 4 ball is also available, but I wouldn't shoot it.

Ghost, I would only consider your shot if my shot was not available. We can go on and on with shots that are available, but when I say only two shots that are available I mean that if my shot is available, then your shot should not be an option. But removing the 4 ball and protecting the 5 ball would be an option, because your shooting off of a differen't ball.

Question for you. If my shot is available, would you even consider your shot ?

If my shot was not available, I would consider your shot.

Reyes shot the wrong shot, the key to escape is to protect the 5 ball, so if available moving both the 6 and 9 ball and repositioning the cue ball behind the 4 ball is clearly the best shot. If that can't be executed then and only then is your shot an option, imo.

Billy I.

 

[lll]

It's a genuine damn miracle that we are discussing two different layouts in this thread and nobody yet has confused the two. Kudos to everybody .

Dennis

people think more clearly late at night

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ghost,

Question for you. If my shot is available, would you even consider your shot ?

If my shot was not available, I would consider your shot.



Billy I.

Billy.....I would have to be on the actual pool table and see exactly how the balls are laying to tell you which of the shots I would shoot.

- Ghost

 

[SJDinPHX]

Billy.....I would have to be on the actual pool table and see exactly how the balls are laying to tell you which of the shots I would shoot.

- Ghost

Finally...a sensible statement....

This is exactly why, (as I have said many times)...I have lately avoided WEI table disputes...

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

This is exactly why, I have lately avoided WEI table disputes...

Yeah, you're much better off in the political threads where your common-sense, reasoning ability, wit, intelligence & brilliance can shine. At least 4-5 people regularly agree with you over there, a much higher % than your WEI shot selection.

P.S. On the phone you said that we would do something on Monday Night Football but on here you have not mentioned it yet. I don't care a whole helluva lot but I'm not starting in the second week either.

Dennis

 

[SJDinPHX]

Yeah, you're much better off in the political threads where your common-sense, reasoning ability, wit, intelligence & brilliance can shine. At least 4-5 people regularly agree with you over there, a much higher % than your WEI shot selection.

P.S. On the phone you said that we would do something on Monday Night Football but on here you have not mentioned it yet. I don't care a whole helluva lot but I'm not starting in the second week either.

Dennis

I thought I made it clear. I am betting tens of thousands every weekend on Football...I do not have time for any funsie (1K) monday night only bets.

Besides you are always SO confused...last year you tried to bet on both teams, playing in the same game...I got migraines...

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Things can look different on a T.V. Bill, but I guarantee you that if you saw this layout and then saw him pass it up without even glancing at it you would think he was crazy. The 1 ball was at least one inch off the rail and maybe a little more.

Dennis

Thanks to CaliRed's innate kindness & unending patience to computer morons, I can now show the screenshots of the layout that I've posted and the distance the 1 ball was from the rail. This is the layout.



This is immediately following Ochoa's shot, it shows the distance the 1 ball was from the rail.

 

[lll]

makes banking the one even more tempting

 

[gulfportdoc]

Thanks to CaliRed's innate kindness & unending patience to computer morons, I can now show the screenshots of the layout that I've posted and the distance the 1 ball was from the rail. This is the layout...
This is immediately following Ochoa's shot, it shows the distance the 1 ball was from the rail...

I set up the 11 ball shot down here in our sauna poolroom on the Dixie Riviera. The humidity causes the ball to bank short, so it makes it relatively easier than on a dry, slippery table. I made it one out of three times.

But I made the 1 ball on the first attempt, and left the CB one inch off the rail. So, in my opinion, although the 11 ball appears to be the safer shot, the 1 ball is such a high percentage probable success, that I would definitely shoot the 1 ball in this situation. BTW, there's no doubt in my mind that if the situation had been reversed, Mike would have shot the 1 ball.

Doc

 

[wincardona]

Thanks to CaliRed's innate kindness & unending patience to computer morons, I can now show the screenshots of the layout that I've posted and the distance the 1 ball was from the rail. This is the layout.

View attachment 1215

This is immediately following Ochoa's shot, it shows the distance the 1 ball was from the rail.

View attachment 1216

After looking at the actual angle and distance of the balls, (1 ball from rail) I can understand why Sylver banked the 13 ball. In order for him to bank the 1 ball he would of had to cut the 1 ball thinly enough to avoid the kiss. In doing that he wouldn't be able to choke it , and leave a cut angle on the 13 ball. So the decision he was confronted with was, bank the 1 ball and if missed he would leave a relatively straight shot on the 13 ball, which would carry natural position on the winning ball.He didn't like the penalty if he missed the bank, I don't blame him. Or he could bank the 13 ball and take a relatively free shot to win the game, shooting a more difficult bank, with a lesser penalty. I like his choice.

Billy I.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

After looking at the actual angle and distance of the balls, (1 ball from rail) I can understand why Sylver banked the 13 ball. In order for him to bank the 1 ball he would of had to cut the 1 ball thinly enough to avoid the kiss. In doing that he wouldn't be able to choke it , and leave a cut angle on the 13 ball. So the decision he was confronted with was, bank the 1 ball and if missed he would leave a relatively straight shot on the 13 ball, which would carry natural position on the winning ball.He didn't like the penalty if he missed the bank, I don't blame him. Or he could bank the 13 ball and take a relatively free shot to win the game, shooting a more difficult bank, with a lesser penalty. I like his choice.

Billy I.

I agree....and I never thought that the bank on the 1ball was such an automatic choice - especially considering the angle of the bank, the importance of the situation, and the very high caliber of opponent he was battling with.

- Ghost

 

[CaliRed]

oh, I see now... everyone's changing their tune now!!! Red saw right away the 1 looked like a tough shot with getting out of the double kiss and still making it with pocket speed. So he elected to shoot the much easier shot to win the game.

[the above post is not to be interpeted as a brag, it's a dig, because of my 2 and 15 record of not choosing the right shot ]