Sylver Ochoa vs. Mike Surber 2009 DCC

wincardona · Sep 14, 2010

fred bentivegna said:
I believe I was speaking about this particular situation, not one where I was 10 to 1 and if I missed I would lose. I have preached against similar mistakes all my life. I am probably a little biased about that shot as it is probably my best go. (the Dixie Whistler)
Incidentally, while we are on the "dispute of the homies," one of the biggest offenders of shooting at something when he has a lead and should be looking to play safe is our own One Pocket Ghost. He will invariably choose a move rather than a passive safety that will lead to a game lock up. The reason I am choosing to release this secret info at this time is because he and I no longer play. That rashness has cost him boo coo games. Rather than take steam, pay attn pal, I am only trying to help.

I also didnt notice a mention of where the tables have rolled better in any other tourn.

Beard

Now, back to Billy. For some reason of other I have always remembered a shot that Sir William made at the Stardust tourn back in 72. He was behind in the game and was making an inspired run out. The game was for the match. I have forgotten who he was playing, but since the guy never got back to the table, its not important, but I remember enough that it was a top player. The guy had a ball hanging in his pocket the whole time during the run. He probably needed two. After several miracle shots Willy was left needing one. But he was about 6 or 7 ft away from a ball in the middle of the table and about a diamond and 1/2 off the rail. About a 1/4 ball cut. I immediately wondered what he was going to do. He never hesitated, got down quickly and freestroked the ball into the pocket -- with speed, cue ball multi -railing around the table. For some reason that situation and shot stuck in my mind. I can still visualize it clearly today.
Why didnt you just shoot the guys ball in the pocket and wait for a freebee? And how confident was that guy the next time he played you? What was it Burt Gordon told Fast Eddie? "Even some percentage players die broke."

Fred, I really don't remember the situation you alluded to, but if you're correct then all I can say is I was a dumb 29 year old very good player. Now I am a 66 year old bad, experienced player.

Billy I.

wincardona · Sep 14, 2010

fred bentivegna said:
Firstly, the tables at DCC roll better than any tourn I have ever played in, in my whole life. Ever, ever, ever.
I dream about guys passing up a better than even money game ender to shoot something marginal in order to play "safer." I say safer, not safe. The long cross corner can certainly bubble up and titty back into the other corner. And if it doesnt titty into the other corner there is no telling where the object ball will go if it does catch a couple of corner titties.

Finally, I shot this shot on my table and discovered that it is laying perfect to hit with speed and draw the q ball over to the long rail, at about dia, #1 and come back across the table and lay near the opposite long rail, leaving your oppo with a long 45 degree cut at best.

Where did the missed 1 ball end up?

Billy I.

Cowboy Dennis · Sep 15, 2010

One Pocket Ghost said:
you might have helped me get action by telling people that I fire at my hole when I should be playing safe, lol.

- Ghost

Well, he didn't actually say that now did he??? I think you guys kept Freddy up too late last night. Maybe his subconscious wrote this:

" He will invariably choose a move rather than a passive safety that will lead to a game lock up."

It seems that he knows the Ghost all too well.

RBL

fred bentivegna · Sep 15, 2010

Thank you

Thank you

Cowboy Dennis said:
Well, he didn't actually say that now did he??? I think you guys kept Freddy up too late last night. Maybe his subconscious wrote this:

" He will invariably choose a move rather than a passive safety that will lead to a game lock up."

It seems that he knows the Ghost all too well.

RBL

As you noted CD, the key word is "move" not "shoot." As I cited once before, I have long dossiers on every pool player of note in the last 50 years. I just took Cardone all the way back to '72 didnt I? My files are as voluminous as J Edgar Hoover's.

Beard

Let me enhance the term to "complicated moves." The same thing that Artie berated Jack Cooney for when they were partners against Grady Humphries for $500 a man at North Shore Billiard Club. After a couple days of playing that game, Artie lost his patience with Jack's overmoving when they had a lead, and suggested they quit Grady and play each other. Cooney however, was not as sufficiently unimpressed with Arties shot selection, he declined and asked for 10 to 8.

I have accumulated similar critiques on most other pool players. I may do a book.

Examples: Ronnie Allen, contrary to popular thought, was much weaker when the balls got uptable! Reason -- His execution on slow rolling, long, off angle shots with the cue ball close to the rail, was not as strong as the average good Nine ball player. He had an advantage in those games of course, because he knew more of what to do. That's why most of Ronnie's games never made it to that stage -- unless he had a big lead.

Bugs: Almost the same problem as Ronnie, except for some reason he could still execute long, slow rolling, off angle banks. It was the long, slow rolling, off angle straight-ins that befuddled him.

However, playing on a half a table both guys could execute enough to make the balls do the Cha Cha.

fred bentivegna · Sep 15, 2010

Ended up

Ended up

wincardona said:
Where did the missed 1 ball end up?

Billy I.

In about 10 tries I never sold out that ball -- save for leaving some kind of bank.
Using your calculations, I would bet I could make that bank 50% of the time, using firm speed. (I have already beat Artie with this same proposition, albeit many moons ago) That means I win 10 out of 20 games immediately. The next 10 games, remember I still have a 2 to 1 ball advantage, generously I will allow my oppo to win 5 out of the 10 remaining games. Thats 15 out of 20. I believe that is a 3 to 1 margin also.

Beard

Apparently what many dont understand is when that shot is hit with speed the rotation of the object ball will allow the pocket to accept it even if it contacts the long rail first. Learned that from Bugs. Showed it to Grady at his Legends tourn in Philly.

I think you were playing either Jersey Red or Ronnie in '72. Cause I remember that you were not the fav. That's when you were the Pittsburg Kid. Where or where has that Kid gone to?

gulfportdoc · Sep 15, 2010

wincardona said:
I just returned home for the day and was curious to see the responses from my post about the decision Sylver made, and I agreed with. Doc I do realize that the 1 ball bank can be hit with pocket speed and be made, but imo the reason Sylver chose the 13 ball was because the 1 ball, even though it is an easier shot, didn't offer him any protection if he happened to miss it. Yes he probably could leave the cue ball frozen or close to the bottom rail, but where on the bottom rail? That's what he was concerned with. If he chose to bank the 1 ball with pocket speed he would of left the cue ball on a relatively straight angle on the 13 ball. So he decided that he wasn't going to give Mike that opportunity had he missed the bank. He then opted to bank at the 13 ball, and there isn't any slide to that shot with the angle he had. I believe he should of tried to win with the bank, but he didn't, considering the speed he hit it with and how badly he missed it. Yes this bank can be executed comfortably with a medium soft speed, and pocketed at least 25% of the time. Yes we will gamble lunch on this shot if you care to.

I can't see why the CB has to advance any further than the center of the head rail after soft banking the 1-ball. If he makes it, game over. Even so, with the 1-ball so close to Ochoa's pocket, Mike (or even Scott Frost "hisself") would never have shot at the striped ball. Being so close to the side pocket, and shooting off the rail at that angle and distance, there's no way to control whitey.

But as to your "medium soft" speed bank on the striped ball, I'd give you 2 tries to make it --for lunch-- which is much better odds than Ochoa had. On the other hand, you have a way of forgetting about paying off on these lunch/dinner/coffee/doughnut wagers...

Doc

wincardona · Sep 15, 2010

fred bentivegna said:
In about 10 tries I never sold out that ball -- save for leaving some kind of bank.
Using your calculations, I would bet I could make that bank 50% of the time, using firm speed. (I have already beat Artie with this same proposition, albeit many moons ago) That means I win 10 out of 20 games immediately. The next 10 games, remember I still have a 2 to 1 ball advantage, generously I will allow my oppo to win 5 out of the 10 remaining games. Thats 15 out of 20. I believe that is a 3 to 1 margin also.

Beard

Apparently what many dont understand is when that shot is hit with speed the rotation of the object ball will allow the pocket to accept it even if it contacts the long rail first. Learned that from Bugs. Showed it to Grady at his Legends tourn in Philly.

I think you were playing either Jersey Red or Ronnie in '72. Cause I remember that you were not the fav. That's when you were the Pittsburg Kid. Where or where has that Kid gone to?

So you finally put the pencil to the problem, to help you figure out the answer. Well there's nothing wrong with your math, but it's the other part of your explanation that I might have a problem with. Personally I don't think anyone can make that bank, hitting it warp speed 50% of the time. And in addition to that I find it hard to believe that when the bank is missed you never give up a return shot. We will have to go to a table at the DCC for you to convince me.

wincardona · Sep 15, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
I can't see why the CB has to advance any further than the center of the head rail after soft banking the 1-ball. If he makes it, game over. Even so, with the 1-ball so close to Ochoa's pocket, Mike (or even Scott Frost "hisself") would never have shot at the striped ball. Being so close to the side pocket, and shooting off the rail at that angle and distance, there's no way to control whitey.

But as to your "medium soft" speed bank on the striped ball, I'd give you 2 tries to make it --for lunch-- which is much better odds than Ochoa had. On the other hand, you have a way of forgetting about paying off on these lunch/dinner/coffee/doughnut wagers...

Doc

I see at 66 years of age your memory has failed you. And if you think that you can bank the 1 ball and reposition the cue ball in the center of the rail your eye sight is failing as well. If you notice in the picture (post 59)the cue ball is slightly favoring the left side of the 1 ball. Plus the 1 ball is slightly more then a chalks distance from the rail, meaning that in order to pocket the bank pocket speed, and reposition the cue ball on or near the rail you will have to cut the 1 ball and draw the cue ball. (to avoid a kiss) In order to pocket the bank and keep the cue ball close to the rail it takes a pinch draw stroke, plus you need to CUT the 1 ball to avoid the kiss. I can't see the cue ball ending up on the center of the rail.

I said that I would make the 13 ball bank 25% of the time. What makes you think your offer of 2 shots to make it would be appealing enough to me to accept. I will take 4 shots

I think that i'll use my spare time at the DCC to my advantage and take you and The Beard to the table and win some free meals.

Billy I.

fred bentivegna · Sep 15, 2010

Right on one part, devious on the other

Right on one part, devious on the other

wincardona said:
I see at 66 years of age your memory has failed you. And if you think that you can bank the 1 ball and reposition the cue ball in the center of the rail your eye sight is failing as well. If you notice in the picture (post 59)the cue ball is slightly favoring the left side of the 1 ball. Plus the 1 ball is slightly more then a chalks distance from the rail, meaning that in order to pocket the bank pocket speed, and reposition the cue ball on or near the rail you will have to cut the 1 ball and draw the cue ball. (to avoid a kiss) In order to pocket the bank and keep the cue ball close to the rail it takes a pinch draw stroke, plus you need to CUT the 1 ball to avoid the kiss. I can't see the cue ball ending up on the center of the rail.

I said that I would make the 13 ball bank 25% of the time. What makes you think your offer of 2 shots to make it would be appealing enough to me to accept. I will take 4 shots

I think that i'll use my spare time at the DCC to my advantage and take you and The Beard to the table and win some free meals.

Billy I.

You're right about being unable to put the cue ball in the center of the rail off of that position. Aint feasable Doc.
Next, I said firm not warp speed. Would you like to give me 2 shots to make the Whistler? You certainly do not want me to explain the percentages on those props do you? Supposedly we are all comrades on here.

Beard

wincardona · Sep 15, 2010

I happen to have a Diamond table sitting in my front room, so I decided to shoot the 1 ball bank with the Dixie Whistler stroke. I pocketed the bank 11 times, the other 9 times that I missed it I sold out 5 times. I also scratched once in my 20 attempts (which was included in my 5 sell outs) By the way it's not easy to draw this shot, hitting it with a hard speed. u cannot draw the cue ball to the other rail and then back across table for a safety comfortably. if you position the balls like they are in post #59 this shot plays more natural with a hit slightly above center ball with speed. This type of hit keeps the cue ball at the end of the table that it needs to be in to lower the % of return shots. This type of hit is not easy to controll the cue ball with. As you noticed in my description of the 20 shots I took, I scratched once and came close several other times. So my conclusion hitting this bank with warp speed may not be a good option.

Conclusion: I made the bank 11 times and out of the 9 misses I sold out 5 times, that leaves 4 games which I rate to win at least 1 of those games, for a total of 6 wins versus 14 losses. Shooting the 1 ball bank with a hard speed returns a 70% win %.

I also shot the 13 ball bank 20 times. I made it 5 times, in the 15 misses I hung it 1 time left 2 return banks and 12 no shots. Conclusion: out of the 15 misses I rate to win 9 times and lose 6 times, which gives me 14 wins and 6 losses, shooting the 13 ball bank. A win% of 70% This may not be a good option.

So Sylver may have chosen the correct shot when he decided to shoot the 13 ball with a hard speed, and play safe, rather then go for the win.I'm guessing in doing that his win % would be somewhere around 70%

So to sum it up all the shots discussed in this post are too close to call.

I haven't done a practice run on banking the 1 ball pocket speed, to get the likely % return. I'm assuming it will be around a 70% win %

Billy I.

CaliRed · Sep 15, 2010

I would be very interested in seeing the Diamond table in the front room of the Cardone Complex, where said shot results were formed

Feel free to grab your digital camera, take a picture and email it to photos@oldpoolhall.com and I'll scan for any incriminating items in the photo and remove them, thus preserving your anonymity

This added visual information will go a long ways in allowing the one-pocketeers (I don't believe I just wrote that word

) on this site to fully comprehend our lively and informational discussion, that a few of our esteemed members have blessed us with.

Kind regards,

Greg aka "CaliRed"

wincardona · Sep 15, 2010

CaliRed said:
I would be very interested in seeing the Diamond table in the front room of the Cardone Complex, where said shot results were formed

Feel free to grab your digital camera, take a picture and email it to photos@oldpoolhall.com and I'll scan for any incriminating items in the photo and remove them, thus preserving your anonymity

This added visual information will go a long ways in allowing the one-pocketeers (I don't believe I just wrote that word ) on this site to fully comprehend our lively and informational discussion, that a few of our esteemed members have blessed us with.

Kind regards,

Greg aka "CaliRed"

That sounded good, but what the hell did you mean the visual info will go a long ways?

But you are right about the blessing part.

Billy I.

Cowboy Dennis · Sep 15, 2010

One Pocket Ghost said:
Well, I hate to bet against my homey, but...

This can be another interesting prop bet.

Here's my proposition....Freddy, we can bet even up - we'll walk around picking DCC tables at random and slow-roll a ball down each long rail to the corresponding corner pockets...if the balls roll straight, you win - if either ball rolls off, I win...we can even do it for cheap, say $10 per table....do I have action....

- Ghosty

Freddy,

You must not have seen this post by the Ghost. I know you would have responded to it if you had

.

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis · Sep 15, 2010

fred bentivegna said:
Bugs: It was the long, slow rolling, off angle straight-ins that befuddled him.

Yeah, those off-angle straight-ins have always befuddled me too

.

RBL

gulfportdoc · Sep 15, 2010

wincardona said:
I see at 66 years of age your memory has failed you. And if you think that you can bank the 1 ball and reposition the cue ball in the center of the rail your eye sight is failing as well. If you notice in the picture (post 59)the cue ball is slightly favoring the left side of the 1 ball. Plus the 1 ball is slightly more then a chalks distance from the rail, meaning that in order to pocket the bank pocket speed, and reposition the cue ball on or near the rail you will have to cut the 1 ball and draw the cue ball. (to avoid a kiss) In order to pocket the bank and keep the cue ball close to the rail it takes a pinch draw stroke, plus you need to CUT the 1 ball to avoid the kiss. I can't see the cue ball ending up on the center of the rail.

I said that I would make the 13 ball bank 25% of the time. What makes you think your offer of 2 shots to make it would be appealing enough to me to accept. I will take 4 shots

I think that i'll use my spare time at the DCC to my advantage and take you and The Beard to the table and win some free meals.

Just don't ever forget that you're many months older than I, so my memory is a little sharper.

But you've already stated that you make the 13 ball bank 25% of the time, so why would I give you 4 shots to do it??? It's like a major league hitter who has batted .250 or better for 10 years, and then tries to get a bet that he'll do it again next season. Are you going to bet that he won't?

BTW, at what speed did you shoot the 13 ball bank? Beard says it should be shot using "medium soft" speed, which I think makes the bank more difficult under those TV table conditions.

As far as the 1 ball bank: If the CB is in fact closer to the long rail than is the 1 ball, then it's not likely to be able to leave the CB on the middle of the short rail. To my eye, they look parallel to the long rail. It's difficult to get the accurate perspective from a picture taken at an angle. That's why you guys in the booth are continuously making the wrong calls...

Doc

wincardona · Sep 16, 2010

gulfportdoc said:
Just don't ever forget that you're many months older than I, so my memory is a little sharper. But you've already stated that you make the 13 ball bank 25% of the time, so why would I give you 4 shots to do it??? It's like a major league hitter who has batted .250 or better for 10 years, and then tries to get a bet that he'll do it again next season. Are you going to bet that he won't?

BTW, at what speed did you shoot the 13 ball bank? Beard says it should be shot using "medium soft" speed, which I think makes the bank more difficult under those TV table conditions.

As far as the 1 ball bank: If the CB is in fact closer to the long rail than is the 1 ball, then it's not likely to be able to leave the CB on the middle of the short rail. To my eye, they look parallel to the long rail. It's difficult to get the accurate perspective from a picture taken at an angle. That's why you guys in the booth are continuously making the wrong calls...

Doc

If I feel that I can bank the 13 ball and average making it 1 out of 4 times, what makes you think that I would take 2 shots to make it.

Or are you trying to put me under the nuts? If you are, then I suggest you come up with a not so obvious against the nuts prop.

Yes I would bank the 13 ball with a medium soft speed, for several reasons.

#1- If I happen to miss the bank I would want to keep it fairly close to my pocket, so my opponent doesn't have a free 2 railer on the 1 ball. I would also hit the bank with a high ball to reposition the cue ball, where the 2 railer is not an option.

#2-Hitting the bank with a medium soft speed increases my chances of hanging it, opposed to a hard speed.

#3- With a medium soft speed, you can never sell out a straight in shot.

#4- Since my opponent needs both balls I would like to position the 13 ball as close to my pocket as possible, offering him less of a chance to run out, and also limiting him of his offensive options.

By the way, with the angle offered on the 13 ball bank, there is very little if any slide to the shot, regardless of the table.

Now back to the 1 ball bank. Even if you were parallel with the 1 ball, you still couldn't end up on, or near to the center of the top rail. The 1 ball is about a chalks distance from the rail, so you must cut the 1 ball in order for you to miss the kiss, with a draw stroke to keep the cue ball near the rail.It has to be hit hard enough for the draw to take effect, which would be too hard to reposition the cue ball near the center of the rail.

Is the reason you feel that us guys in the booth continuously make the wrong calls,because you believe your option is better?

Billy I. < Waiting to hear from you.

fred bentivegna · Sep 16, 2010

I didnt miss it!

I didnt miss it!

Cowboy Dennis said:
Yeah, those off-angle straight-ins have always befuddled me too .

RBL

CD, I didnt miss your little gem there. Others may have. Mainly because most people understand that straight-in carries two definitions. One is dead straight-in, and the other is straight-in as in the question in this statement: "Do you want to play banks or a straight in game?" Straight-in, in that context indicates and includes, cut shots. So there.

Beard

I believe you knew all that anyway.

fred bentivegna · Sep 16, 2010

Starting trouble again

Starting trouble again

Originally Posted by One Pocket Ghost
Well, I hate to bet against my homey, but...

This can be another interesting prop bet.

Here's my proposition....Freddy, we can bet even up - we'll walk around picking DCC tables at random and slow-roll a ball down each long rail to the corresponding corner pockets...if the balls roll straight, you win - if either ball rolls off, I win...we can even do it for cheap, say $10 per table....do I have action....

- Ghosty

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis said:
Freddy,

You must not have seen this post by the Ghost. I know you would have responded to it if you had .

Dennis

Didnt you start enough trouble with those cute, "taught Seattle Slew" posts?
Trying to heat me and the Ghostie up now?
Anyway, the bet he suggests would be something like me betting that the wind wasn't blowing outside without a stipulation of how many MPH.

Beard

Still waiting for that tourn that had better rolling tables than DCC. I played in Grady's Legends in South Carolina in the 90s. The tables were better suited for MotorCross than one pocket. Somehow Varner was able to bunt balls with accuracy anyway.

gulfportdoc · Sep 16, 2010

wincardona said:
If I feel that I can bank the 13 ball and average making it 1 out of 4 times, what makes you think that I would take 2 shots to make it.
Or are you trying to put me under the nuts? If you are, then I suggest you come up with a not so obvious against the nuts prop.

Yes I would bank the 13 ball with a medium soft speed, for several reasons.

#1- If I happen to miss the bank I would want to keep it fairly close to my pocket, so my opponent doesn't have a free 2 railer on the 1 ball. I would also hit the bank with a high ball to reposition the cue ball, where the 2 railer is not an option.

#2-Hitting the bank with a medium soft speed increases my chances of hanging it, opposed to a hard speed.

#3- With a medium soft speed, you can never sell out a straight in shot.

#4- Since my opponent needs both balls I would like to position the 13 ball as close to my pocket as possible, offering him less of a chance to run out, and also limiting him of his offensive options.

By the way, with the angle offered on the 13 ball bank, there is very little if any slide to the shot, regardless of the table.

Now back to the 1 ball bank. Even if you were parallel with the 1 ball, you still couldn't end up on, or near to the center of the top rail. The 1 ball is about a chalks distance from the rail, so you must cut the 1 ball in order for you to miss the kiss, with a draw stroke to keep the cue ball near the rail.It has to be hit hard enough for the draw to take effect, which would be too hard to reposition the cue ball near the center of the rail.

Is the reason you feel that us guys in the booth continuously make the wrong calls,because you believe your option is better?

Billy I. < Waiting to hear from you.

Well, I'm flattered that you are awaiting my counsel.

I'm not sure where you're setting up the 1-ball shot on your home table, but when I set up the shot, I had no trouble banking the 1-ball with pocket speed, and leaving whitey near the center of the short rail. We'd have to mark the balls and shoot the shot on different tables to see the variables. The important part is to leave the CB on the rail. The opponent is not going to shoot the 13 ball if the 1 ball is in front of the pocket.

As to the 13: With the way the shot lays on the freeze frame picture, I don't see how it could be banked and pocketed with any type of soft stroke on that hot, bone dry, long rolling TV table. And if it's hit slightly off line on the right, there's a kiss. On the tables in the room I play at in Dixie, the shot "might could" be accomplished. Perhaps Fred could explain the mechanics of this shot to us with Beard Science.

Doc

fred bentivegna · Sep 16, 2010

Beard Science

Beard Science

gulfportdoc said:
Well, I'm flattered that you are awaiting my counsel. I'm not sure where you're setting up the 1-ball shot on your home table, but when I set up the shot, I had no trouble banking the 1-ball with pocket speed, and leaving whitey near the center of the short rail. We'd have to mark the balls and shoot the shot on different tables to see the variables. The important part is to leave the CB on the rail. The opponent is not going to shoot the 13 ball if the 1 ball is in front of the pocket.

As to the 13: With the way the shot lays on the freeze frame picture, I don't see how it could be banked and pocketed with any type of soft stroke on that hot, bone dry, long rolling TV table. And if it's hit slightly off line on the right, there's a kiss. On the tables in the room I play at in Dixie, the shot "might could" be accomplished. Perhaps Fred could explain the mechanics of this shot to us with Beard Science.

Doc

The angle to the pocket on the 13 is approx 45 degrees. A ball coming off the rail at a 45 degree angle will usually hold to close to a 45 degree angle, no matter what. The angle that is affected least by speed or english is a 45 degree angle. All good 3 cushion players know that particular angle science, and live off of it. As the saying goes, "What happens to a 45 degree angle, stays on a 45 degree angle."

Beard

Got that from Bud Harris who got it from Welker Cochran who got it from Professor Lansing Perkins....

Sylver Ochoa vs. Mike Surber 2009 DCC

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