Middle game strategy

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 19, 2009

lfigueroa said:
I've already admitted I, "dan't know nothin'.'"

Especially when compared to all "gurus" here who keep telling us all how smart they are.

Is there a problem with pointing out that the "gurus" are "missing in action" on, what seems to me, a very legit question about the middle game?

Lou Figueroa

I ain't no guru, but I'll tell you what think.
1. Schimdt needs to get that piece of shit off of his left hand.
2. Frost only made 3 balls. All gifts from Schimdt. No patience.
3. Lose the purple shirt and get serious.
4. Actually try to win the game. He looked like he was dumping.
5. When Frost jawed up the 5 ball, Schimdt looked at banking something before he finally shot the 5 in and scratched behind it. He should have known the shot was the 5 and never looked anywhere else.
6. Frost was robbing him and Frost knew it.
7. I do not know anything about who won the match or anything else. But Frost is clearly the superior player and will be until Schimdt learns how to play.
8. I'm not too good at seeing long-term strategy and writing about it, but from watching that one clip, I'd say Frost could give him 10-8 and win.
9. The only real mistake Schimdt made was getting out of bed that day.

Artie Bodendorfer · Mar 20, 2009

lfigueroa said:
OK, so here’s my 2cents, from a guy no where near as smart as the $30K guys, and others (you know who you are), that seem to let on they know so much, but suddenly get internet laryngitis when it comes to giving any insight as to what, seems to me, a pretty clear picture.

First off, JS, great player that he is, is clearly lost. Perhaps his best 1pocket move is 8 and out. Just watch the way he comes to the table. Clearly, he has no clue what the right shot is. OTOH, watch how SF comes to the table. Somewhat obviously, he has a clue and shows that as he approaches the table for each shot.

Imo, JS is just trying to attack, without rhyme or reason. He knows he’s out of his element, can’t play extended defense against SF (and come out ahead), and is pulling the trigger on each and every shot he can. It's a dumb strategy. A more knowledgeable 1pocket player does not panic in this situation and instead, tries to develop an up-table position.

In a nutshell, what SF is trying to do during this middle portion of the game, is to keep JS's banking lanes tied up. IOW, he’s making sure that JS’s side stays a mess. You can see this when SF plays at least a safety, or two, that instead of putting something on his side, keeps a ball on JS’s side, to keep his lanes clogged up.

That’s my sorry ass “contribution.” But like I said: "I dan’t knows nothin’."

Lou Figueroa

Its Ok everyone is not meant to be a leader. Thier are lots off sheep out thier. But not to learn is crime.

Skin · Mar 20, 2009

lfigueroa said:
OK, so here’s my 2cents, from a guy no where near as smart as the $30K guys, and others (you know who you are), that seem to let on they know so much, but suddenly get internet laryngitis when it comes to giving any insight as to what, seems to me, a pretty clear picture.

First off, JS, great player that he is, is clearly lost. Perhaps his best 1pocket move is 8 and out. Just watch the way he comes to the table. Clearly, he has no clue what the right shot is. OTOH, watch how SF comes to the table. Somewhat obviously, he has a clue and shows that as he approaches the table for each shot.

Imo, JS is just trying to attack, without rhyme or reason. He knows he’s out of his element, can’t play extended defense against SF (and come out ahead), and is pulling the trigger on each and every shot he can. It's a dumb strategy. A more knowledgeable 1pocket player does not panic in this situation and instead, tries to develop an up-table position.

In a nutshell, what SF is trying to do during this middle portion of the game, is to keep JS's banking lanes tied up. IOW, he’s making sure that JS’s side stays a mess. You can see this when SF plays at least a safety, or two, that instead of putting something on his side, keeps a ball on JS’s side, to keep his lanes clogged up.

That’s my sorry ass “contribution.” But like I said: "I dan’t knows nothin’."

Lou Figueroa

Lou, your analysis is where I was before I asked the question to start this thread. And I don't know nothing, either. So, while I appreciate what you wrote, it is not helpful unless I intend to stay stupid.

Perhaps you can be prevailed upon to watch the Owen/Varner match I linked to. And comment. Owen was a monster in that match and took Varner 4-0. What do you think? Can more be learned from a match like that between two great players or one that is very close? My goal is to learn, from anybody, anyway, I can (free is best

).

Skin

senor · Mar 20, 2009

Cowboy Dennis said:
I ain't no guru, but I'll tell you what think.
1. Schimdt needs to get that piece of shit off of his left hand.
2. Frost only made 3 balls. All gifts from Schimdt. No patience.
3. Lose the purple shirt and get serious.
4. Actually try to win the game. He looked like he was dumping.
5. When Frost jawed up the 5 ball, Schimdt looked at banking something before he finally shot the 5 in and scratched behind it. He should have known the shot was the 5 and never looked anywhere else.
6. Frost was robbing him and Frost knew it.
7. I do not know anything about who won the match or anything else. But Frost is clearly the superior player and will be until Schimdt learns how to play.
8. I'm not too good at seeing long-term strategy and writing about it, but from watching that one clip, I'd say Frost could give him 10-8 and win.
9. The only real mistake Schimdt made was getting out of bed that day.

That might be the best analysis I've ever heard and I haven't even seen the footage!

BTW and FWIW, I am not on the JS one pocket train by any means, but we would have some action if SF ever gave JS 10-8. But this is as much fantasy as all the WEI table action, because that match will never happen.

lfigueroa · Mar 20, 2009

Skin said:
Lou, your analysis is where I was before I asked the question to start this thread. And I don't know nothing, either. So, while I appreciate what you wrote, it is not helpful unless I intend to stay stupid.

Perhaps you can be prevailed upon to watch the Owen/Varner match I linked to. And comment. Owen was a monster in that match and took Varner 4-0. What do you think? Can more be learned from a match like that between two great players or one that is very close? My goal is to learn, from anybody, anyway, I can (free is best ).
Skin

Oh, sorry. I thought in your initial post you said you were as confused as Schmidt and couldn't figure out what was going on.

So I think I'll pass on your invited to watch the other vid. You probably already know what I have to say on that one too and wouldn't find that helpful either

Lou Figueroa
doesn't want anyone
to stay stupid

gulfportdoc · Mar 20, 2009

lfigueroa said:
In a nutshell, what SF is trying to do during this middle portion of the game, is to keep JS's banking lanes tied up. IOW, he’s making sure that JS’s side stays a mess. You can see this when SF plays at least a safety, or two, that instead of putting something on his side, keeps a ball on JS’s side, to keep his lanes clogged up.

AND Frost kept leaving Schmidt on the foot rail, with not only no shot, but very little opportunity to leave Frost distance in return.

I'm sure Schmidt's strategy was similar to Corey Duell's when he played Shannon Daulton. He knew he could not out move him, so he wanted to try to get into any kind of position to run 8 and out. Frost was aware of Schmidt's thinking.

As it turned out, each time Frost made a bad mistake, or got a bad roll, Schmidt was able to get all the way out from there.

I believe Frost might consider giving Schmidt 10-8 in Arizona, but I doubt that Schmidt would play him there.

Doc

Skin · Mar 20, 2009

lfigueroa said:
Oh, sorry. I thought in your initial post you said you were as confused as Schmidt and couldn't figure out what was going on.

So I think I'll pass on your invited to watch the other vid. You probably already know what I have to say on that one too and wouldn't find that helpful either

Lou Figueroa
doesn't want anyone
to stay stupid

Just razzin' you a bit, Lou. That's all. But that is a good point you make about Frost trying to keep Schmidt's banking lanes clogged. The Owen/Varner match is a really good video. Owen played perfect. It was unbelievable. Well worth the 2 hours to watch it.

Skin (has yet to say anything enlightening about this game)

backplaying · Mar 21, 2009

I would think 10-8 would be a even game. I would like Scott in a longer race.

SJDinPHX · Mar 21, 2009

Temperature at Kolby's today 89 f. Ronn's ass, 212 f.

Temperature at Kolby's today 89 f. Ronn's ass, 212 f.

senor said:
That might be the best analysis I've ever heard and I haven't even seen the footage!

BTW and FWIW, I am not on the JS one pocket train by any means, but we would have some action if SF ever gave JS 10-8. But this is as much fantasy as all the WEI table action, because that match will never happen.

Senor,

That game could very well happen if JS were to accept 10-8, which I don't think he would.
I have to disagree with you, in a long session, JS would be toast.
Let me give you an update on what Scott has to do to get action around his home room.
He gave Ronnie Allen 10 to 5, 4 ahead for 2K, they played 10 hrs. RA finally conceded.(I and others were RA's stakehorse)
Just last week, (as he was convelecing from his spider bite) he gave Preacher Ronn ( who is a very knowledgable, solid A rated local player) TEN TO FOUR (yes, 10 to 4) and beat him two races to 4 for $500.
4 to1 and 4 to 0.
Ronn is out of ICU and in recovery now.
I have noticed Scott has never IMO played his best in short race tournament environments. He always seems a little on edge.
But DO NOT underestimate his ability to give up big time weight when he is in his comfort zone.

Dick

PS That being said...these old bones would try him some 10-4, and I can't even beat Preacher Ronn any more. (all above games WERE on the square)

gbru · Mar 21, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
Senor,

.
He gave Ronnie Allen 10 to 5, 4 ahead for 2K, they played 10 hrs. RA finally conceded.(I and others were RA's stakehorse)

I have noticed Scott has never IMO played his best in short race tournament environments. He always seems a little on edge.
But DO NOT underestimate his ability to give up big time weight when he is in his comfort zone.

Dick.....I saw some of the preacher Ronn on line. Scott was pretty impressive. And yes, Ron seemed to be a pretty good player.

I agree.....when Scott gets in his fine-tuned...... kind of head cocked to the side approach he is hard to beat. He seems to have a lot of stamina for the duration also.

How long ago was that RA / Frost match up?

I watched a video last night from 1988 World One Pocket at Bella Baton Rouge I think it was. Ronnie vs Leil (JR) Gay.

I had never seen JR play before as I am relatively new to this world of one pocket. However, he seemed to have played pretty good, eventhough I know Ronnie was not any where near his prime at that time.

JR ended up beating him but Ronnie made a few bad judgements in my opinion. In one game Ronnie needed one ball and shot at a bank from within the kitchen with 4 balls down by JR's pocket. I am going to try and show the table layout if I can get the multiple pages to work.

SJDinPHX · Mar 21, 2009

gbru said:
SJDinPHX said:

Senor,

.
He gave Ronnie Allen 10 to 5, 4 ahead for 2K, they played 10 hrs. RA finally conceded.(I and others were RA's stakehorse)

I have noticed Scott has never IMO played his best in short race tournament environments. He always seems a little on edge.
But DO NOT underestimate his ability to give up big time weight when he is in his comfort zone.

Dick.....I saw some of the preacher Ronn on line. Scott was pretty impressive. And yes, Ron seemed to be a pretty good player.

I agree.....when Scott gets in his fine-tuned...... kind of head cocked to the side approach he is hard to beat. He seems to have a lot of stamina for the duration also.

How long ago was that RA / Frost match up?

I watched a video last night from 1988 World One Pocket at Bella Baton Rouge I think it was. Ronnie vs Leil (JR) Gay.

I had never seen JR play before as I am relatively new to this world of one pocket. However, he seemed to have played pretty good, eventhough I know Ronnie was not any where near his prime at that time.

JR ended up beating him but Ronnie made a few bad judgements in my opinion. In one game Ronnie needed one ball and shot at a bank from within the kitchen with 4 balls down by JR's pocket. I am going to try and show the table layout if I can get the multiple pages to work.

Click to expand...

George,

The SF-RA match was about 6-7 mos. ago.
You are refering to the Gay-Allen match that was played in '98, not '88.
I was there and RA had started slipping pretty good by that time. (he was 60 in '98, I was 64)
His game has really gone south of late. His health is not holding up too well either.

Dick

senor · Mar 21, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
Senor,

That game could very well happen if JS were to accept 10-8, which I don't think he would.
I have to disagree with you, in a long session, JS would be toast.
Let me give you an update on what Scott has to do to get action around his home room.
He gave Ronnie Allen 10 to 5, 4 ahead for 2K, they played 10 hrs. RA finally conceded.(I and others were RA's stakehorse)
Just last week, (as he was convelecing from his spider bite) he gave Preacher Ronn ( who is a very knowledgable, solid A rated local player) TEN TO FOUR (yes, 10 to 4) and beat him two races to 4 for $500.
4 to1 and 4 to 0.
Ronn is out of ICU and in recovery now.
I have noticed Scott has never IMO played his best in short race tournament environments. He always seems a little on edge.
But DO NOT underestimate his ability to give up big time weight when he is in his comfort zone.

Dick

PS That being said...these old bones would try him some 10-4, and I can't even beat Preacher Ronn any more. (all above games WERE on the square)

This just reinforces the belief that I can pick winners with the worst of them. My money traditionally disappeared when betting on others and grew when betting on myself. Now that I can't bet on myself anymore, I might be broke before the sun goes down!

gbru · Mar 21, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
gbru said:

George,

The SF-RA match was about 6-7 mos. ago.
You are refering to the Gay-Allen match that was played in '98, not '88.
I was there and RA had started slipping pretty good by that time. (he was 60 in '98, I was 64)
His game has really gone south of late. His health is not holding up too well either.

Dick

Click to expand...

That's what I meant to write Dick. I just hit the 8 instead of the 9. I must have been having a senior moment. Do those moments start around 62 or do I still have a few good years left.

Even at 60, I was able to see in this event that he could pull off some magic shots. JR Gay left him hung up in the first game froze to a ball..... Ronnie jacked up and spun the object ball away while caroming the cueball into a ball by his pocket....... The ball dropped and he banked another ball and then ran out. I got to see alittle of his majic anyway.

It's too bad Accu-stats wasn't around earlier.

sappo · Mar 22, 2009

Criticism Of John Schmidt

Criticism Of John Schmidt

After reading thru this entire thread i have to speak up. John Schmidt went thru the entire DCC one-pocket event without losing a match!!! I dont understand how so many people can be so critical of him as a one pocket player. HE IS THE CURRENT DCC ONE POCKET CHAMPION!!!! What difference if he wears a glove? What difference if he wears a bright colored shirt? And if he isnt as knowledgable one pocket player as Scott Frost who cares. He still won and he deserves better than this thread has given him. I say congratulations to you Mr. Schmidt on a terriffic event. Sappo

SJDinPHX · Mar 22, 2009

sappo said:
After reading thru this entire thread i have to speak up. John Schmidt went thru the entire DCC one-pocket event without losing a match!!! I dont understand how so many people can be so critical of him as a one pocket player. HE IS THE CURRENT DCC ONE POCKET CHAMPION!!!! What difference if he wears a glove? What difference if he wears a bright colored shirt? And if he isnt as knowledgable one pocket player as Scott Frost who cares. He still won and he deserves better than this thread has given him. I say congratulations to you Mr. Schmidt on a terriffic event. Sappo

Sappo,

Point well made. As for myself, my critique of John was not as a pool player,
we all know he plays a lot of games very well.
I'm saying that I know of at least ten or twelve players at DCC this year who could give JS AT LEAST a ball or more playing one pocket in a longer session for the cash. I think John would be the first to admit that.
The balls will rarely allow you to run 8 and out all that often, much less 3 out of 4 games...He just caught lightning in a jug.
A race to three is the way they have to play due to time constraints, but as we all know, the best 1P player will not always win.

Dick

Artie Bodendorfer · Mar 22, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
Sappo,

Point well made. As for myself, my critique of John was not as a pool player,
we all know he plays a lot of games very well.
I'm saying that I know of at least ten or twelve players at DCC this year who could give JS AT LEAST a ball or more playing one pocket in a longer session for the cash. I think John would be the first to admit that.
The balls will rarely allow you to run 8 and out all that often, much less 3 out of 4 games...He just caught lightning in a jug.
A race to three is the way they have to play due to time constraints, but as we all know, the best 1P player will not always win.

Dick

It does not matter if you played good or bad the goal was to win the tournement . And if you win the tournement you are number one. THats the bottom line. All the other players had the same oppertunitie to win it and didnt. If the were better why didnt the win it. You always give the winner cridet for what he did. And some times you see the 5th or 6 player win it. THe best player does not have to win the tournement. I cogradulate John Schmidte for winning the one pocket tournement. And he desirvies it. He is the tournement champion.

SJDinPHX · Mar 22, 2009

It ain't easy bein' me !

It ain't easy bein' me !

Why do I feel that if I had said "John is a hell of a one pocket player and he deserved to win"....Somebody (and we all know who) would have taken the opposite viewpoint ?

Dick <---used to know how to rate players based on how often they shot the dead wrong shot, as opposed to playing
"purfeck misstak free" one pocket.

Cowboy Dennis · Mar 22, 2009

sappo said:
After reading thru this entire thread i have to speak up. John Schmidt went thru the entire DCC one-pocket event without losing a match!!! I dont understand how so many people can be so critical of him as a one pocket player. HE IS THE CURRENT DCC ONE POCKET CHAMPION!!!! What difference if he wears a glove? What difference if he wears a bright colored shirt? And if he isnt as knowledgable one pocket player as Scott Frost who cares. He still won and he deserves better than this thread has given him. I say congratulations to you Mr. Schmidt on a terriffic event. Sappo

We were asked to comment based on a clip of a partial game. If you based your comments on that clip and nothing else, like I did, then you would not know that Schmidt won the tournament. I did not know it.

You would not know that he was undefeated, I did not know that either.

I'd never seen him play in my life until I saw that clip. I based my comments on that clip only.

As to you not knowing how people could be so critical of his one-pocket game, based on that one clip only, he cannot play or think one-pocket as well as some 25 year olds in my local poolrooms.

Counting the 5 ball that Frost jawed up and then Schmidt followed in, he gave up 4 completely free shots to Frost. Not the mark of a champion.

Base your comments on that one clip and you cannot reach any other conclusion.

And I stand by everything I said in my critique of his game.

gulfportdoc · Mar 22, 2009

SJDinPHX said:
A race to three is the way they have to play due to time constraints, but as we all know, the best 1P player will not always win.

Very true, Dick. That reminds me of a comment Mike Caro, "The Mad Professor" said about poker tournaments: "If you play 10 times better than everyone else, you'll win 1 out of 100 tournaments!"

Doc

Skin · Mar 23, 2009

sappo said:
After reading thru this entire thread i have to speak up. John Schmidt went thru the entire DCC one-pocket event without losing a match!!! I dont understand how so many people can be so critical of him as a one pocket player. HE IS THE CURRENT DCC ONE POCKET CHAMPION!!!! What difference if he wears a glove? What difference if he wears a bright colored shirt? And if he isnt as knowledgable one pocket player as Scott Frost who cares. He still won and he deserves better than this thread has given him. I say congratulations to you Mr. Schmidt on a terriffic event. Sappo

For the record, it was not my intention to diminish John Schmiidt's performance or skills in any way. During that first game, Frost got him on the ropes and he didn't get off. I wondered what he could have done differently. Maybe he was looking to run out the whole time, as was suggested.

As to who is the best one-pocket player, I wouldn't know. Schmidt was clearly the winner of the tournament. The short race is not the right format for determining who is the best anyway. It is for deciding who to give the prize money to.

Skin

Middle game strategy

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