Table Differences

ive seen mentioned alot that certain shots would go on a gold crown but not on a diamond for example. dick mentioned for example (i think this is correct) he doesnt like to play on a diamond if he can help it.
can you guys describe the characteristics of some of the more popular tables and why does one brand play different from another??
thanks for the replies

Nearly all in the rails, I would think. Could you still tell the difference if they all had the same rails?

Larry, I couldn't tell you the difference. I've only played on diamonds once and they tell me they're older ones and more like the crowns.
Rod.

vapros said:

Nearly all in the rails, I would think. Could you still tell the difference if they all had the same rails?

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Yeah, it has to be the rails, unless the playing surface is more or less than 50 X 100 inches. The differences really show up in the bank shots. Diamonds are reportedly "short" in comparison to most GCs-- which apparently are considered "true". I don't know the fine differences between K66 and K55, or whatever. We'd have to hear from a good table mechanic or a guys like Bob Jewett or Dr. Dave.

My own play is almost exclusively on Diamonds, since most poolrooms near the Dixie Riviera have that brand. The combination of the humidity and the tendency to be short really reduces the bank angles here. On the occasion where I go up north to play, or for that matter anywhere the A/C is on 24/7, it takes some real adjustment for me on the banks.

What IS easier on dry equipment, or on GCs, is their typically more forgiving pockets. Here on the Gulf, if the ball touches the cloth on the way into the hole, it tends to hang. On a dry GC the pockets will accept the ball much easier-- partly due to the slide, and partly due to the shallower shelves. Also pocket facing angles are slightly easier on the GCs.

My guess is that Gandy's, Olhausens, and some others play more like GCs.

Doc

Doc, thanks for the reply
come on you old timers tell us the scoop

Cushion curl

Cushion curl

I actually just figured this out recently since I only play on Diamonds at DCC. I was always aware of differences but I couldnt until now, explain it. On a GC when the object ball contacts the rail at an EASY speed -- with little or no english -- it takes a pronounced CURL off of the rail, and breaks somewhat LONG on the outgoing angle. Curling means that it is not rolling end over end, but turning slightly on its axis, like english. That action causes a bank shot to run longer.

On a Diamond this effect is reduced considerably. That is, when you contact a cushion with easy speed on a Diamond, there is much less curl and the ball will more quickly run end over end and take a "purer" straighter path to the pocket. (When the object ball is curling the ball tends to keep "widening.")

That's why I think it is much easier to bank on a Diamond -- if you know how to use the table. All you have to do is get your bank started into a banking lane, easy speed, and it will continue straight into the pocket. Especially on straight backs. On a GC many times you will hit a straight back into what looks like a cinch make-angle, but at the last moment it turns into the long cushion and hangs up. Most of the time if you come that close on a Diamond you will be rewarded with the bank scoring.

Beard

Just a little tip to give the fellas a little edge at DCC this year.

fred bentivegna said:

I actually just figured this out recently since I only play on Diamonds at DCC. I was always aware of differences but I couldnt until now, explain it. On a GC when the object ball contacts the rail at an EASY speed -- with little or no english -- it takes a pronounced CURL off of the rail, and breaks somewhat LONG on the outgoing angle. Curling means that it is not rolling end over end, but turning slightly on its axis, like english. That action causes a bank shot to run longer.

On a Diamond this effect is reduced considerably. That is, when you contact a cushion with easy speed on a Diamond, there is much less curl and the ball will more quickly run end over end and take a "purer" straighter path to the pocket. (When the object ball is curling the ball tends to keep "widening.")

That's why I think it is much easier to bank on a Diamond -- if you know how to use the table. All you have to do is get your bank started into a banking lane, easy speed, and it will continue straight into the pocket. Especially on straight backs. On a GC many times you will hit a straight back into what looks like a cinch make-angle, but at the last moment it turns into the long cushion and hangs up. Most of the time if you come that close on a Diamond you will be rewarded with the bank scoring.

Beard

Just a little tip to give the fellas a little edge at DCC this year.

Click to expand...

Not to discredit what you say Beard, because I agree with everything you said...But long story short, Diamonds are just easier pool tables. They equalize talent gaps. Sure, some of the pockets may play tight or appear to play tighter than GCs, but then that hurdle is negated by the juiced up rails and cloth. Getting shape correctly does not mean as much anymore, playing the correct patterns, when all the equipment is juiced.

senor said:

Not to discredit what you say Beard, because I agree with everything you said...But long story short, Diamonds are just easier pool tables. They equalize talent gaps. Sure, some of the pockets may play tight or appear to play tighter than GCs, but then that hurdle is negated by the juiced up rails and cloth. Getting shape correctly does not mean as much anymore, playing the correct patterns, when all the equipment is juiced.

Click to expand...

Just curious... if diamonds are easier tables, why do so many people have problems playing on them? Is it simply the fact they are used to GC's and once they get familiar with Diamonds, they'll be a more consistent player, or...

I've never played on a diamond, with diamond rails and the notorious diamond deep shelf, so I can't even offer my own experience... but I have played on an Olhausen and I liked it for the most part... although it was strange that I noticed just how easy those pockets were taking balls after being used to double-shimmed GC's (my normal table of choice).

stljohnny said:

Just curious... if diamonds are easier tables, why do so many people have problems playing on them? Is it simply the fact they are used to GC's and once they get familiar with Diamonds, they'll be a more consistent player, or...

I've never played on a diamond, with diamond rails and the notorious diamond deep shelf, so I can't even offer my own experience... but I have played on an Olhausen and I liked it for the most part... although it was strange that I noticed just how easy those pockets were taking balls after being used to double-shimmed GC's (my normal table of choice).

Click to expand...

I don't think everyone would agree Diamonds are easier. I like them more than any other production table I have played on as I think they are more consistent, table to table than any other I have played on. Once you learn the banks, they seem more consistent and I really have a hard time, aside from the way a table plays early in a tounnament and how it plays later, after 1,000's of games.

Maybe they are "easier" to get accustomed to then just the term easy, IMO.

Deeman said:

I don't think everyone would agree Diamonds are easier. I like them more than any other production table I have played on as I think they are more consistent, table to table than any other I have played on. Once you learn the banks, they seem more consistent and I really have a hard time, aside from the way a table plays early in a tounnament and how it plays later, after 1,000's of games.

Maybe they are "easier" to get accustomed to then just the term easy, IMO.

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To me, just the years of playing GC's (wet and dry) Make the adjustment to Diamonds tougher. They are good tables, but the rail are so "springy" and lively, I just have trouble adjusting...A problem I don't think I would have had when I was younger..."Old dog..new tricks" syndrome.

The only Diamond I've ever played on is at Kolby's, (and they only have "one" all the rest are Crowns))... and I've never gotten comfortable with it.
My game goes down a couple balls. (as a rule)... Frost, and some other players, seem to go up a ball or two. Not that they can't play on a GC, they are just way more comfortable on the Diamond.

Not sourgrapes...just lack of tournament play, which now, is almost exclusively on Diamonds.

stljohnny said:

Just curious... if diamonds are easier tables, why do so many people have problems playing on them? Is it simply the fact they are used to GC's and once they get familiar with Diamonds, they'll be a more consistent player, or...

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I can't speak for anyone else STL, I just know that I would rather give up the 8 or the 7-8 playing 9 ball on a GC than on a Diamond. I'm just being a curmudgeon. My favorite tables are GCs with worn, nap cloth. You can't play bad and get over on equipment like that. Seems like someone can play poorly and still overcome on a Diamond because the rails are so quick and they all seem to have simonis 760.

Initially, I resented playing on a Diamond, only because I had spent countless hours on a GC honing my multi-rail kick angles.......and here I was now, having to learn them all over again due to the shorter angles of a Diamond.

Flash forward a couple of years to today........ I absolutely love playing 1P on the Diamond. They are just so consistant from one table to the next.

So it got me thinking......why should a Diamond be more consistant than a GC? Most poolroom GC's that I've played on are primarily GC ll's and GC lll's, with occasional GC l's thrown in there. It follows then, that their rubber may be conceivably 20, 30 , 40 years old......or perhaps just recently replaced.

My experience is that each and every GC plays slightly different (rubber wise), presumably due to this fact. All Diamond tables are relatively recent and it's no surprise that the fresh rubber would all play the same.

Also, given that the Diamond rubber plays approx 15-20% faster than a typical GC, it allows certain shots (the 5 railer for example) to be played with a much higher success rate that you may not even contemplate on a GC.

Whaddaya' think?

Thanks. Bernie.

bernie p said:

Initially, I resented playing on a Diamond, only because I had spent countless hours on a GC honing my multi-rail kick angles.......and here I was now, having to learn them all over again due to the shorter angles of a Diamond.

Flash forward a couple of years to today........ I absolutely love playing 1P on the Diamond. They are just so consistant from one table to the next.

So it got me thinking......why should a Diamond be more consistant than a GC? Most poolroom GC's that I've played on are primarily GC ll's and GC lll's, with occasional GC l's thrown in there. It follows then, that their rubber may be conceivably 20, 30 , 40 years old......or perhaps just recently replaced.

My experience is that each and every GC plays slightly different (rubber wise), presumably due to this fact. All Diamond tables are relatively recent and it's no surprise that the fresh rubber would all play the same.

Also, given that the Diamond rubber plays approx 15-20% faster than a typical GC, it allows certain shots (the 5 railer for example) to be played with a much higher success rate that you may not even contemplate on a GC.

Whaddaya' think?

Thanks. Bernie.

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You make some very good points Bernie, and I agree with them all...Except for one...You have to remember,... I was in my heyday when Crowns First came out...so "worn out" rubber was not an issue. Neither were the unforgiving tight pockets that have become the norm...(which we all prefer now)

If I ever get to play on another Diamond besides the one in Kolby's, (once a month) I may learn to like them too..
I guess it will be "baptism under fire" at the upcoming DCC...

(PS..Finally got to Ronn real good last night...on my GC.. )

SJDinPHX said:

To me, just the years of playing GC's (wet and dry) Make the adjustment to Diamonds tougher. They are good tables, but the rail are so "springy" and lively, I just have trouble adjusting...A problem I don't think I would have had when I was younger..."Old dog..new tricks" syndrome.

The only Diamond I've ever played on is at Kolby's, (and they only have "one" all the rest are Crowns))... and I've never gotten comfortable with it.
My game goes down a couple balls. (as a rule)... Frost, and some other players, seem to go up a ball or two. Not that they can't play on a GC, they are just way more comfortable on the Diamond.

Not sourgrapes...just lack of tournament play, which now, is almost exclusively on Diamonds.

Click to expand...

Dick,

If you'd spent more time playing at DCC than wandering around with the ladies, I think you'd feel more confortable with them. Like you, I had very little exposure to them before Derby City but after hitting uncounted numbers of balls for almost two weeks each year on them, I have come to like them more much more. In my experience, like Bernie, many who are there the first year are complaining about the speed and the rebound on banks but after a while most seem to prefer them.

I have a GC III in my home and I would prefer a Diamond even after putting new rubber on it. I do think the point that you get such a variety of age in the GC's is valid.

DeeMan

Of course, some of us consider you may just be laying a spread out for this year's match-ups!

fred bentivegna said:

I actually just figured this out recently since I only play on Diamonds at DCC. I was always aware of differences but I couldnt until now, explain it. On a GC when the object ball contacts the rail at an EASY speed -- with little or no english -- it takes a pronounced CURL off of the rail, and breaks somewhat LONG on the outgoing angle. Curling means that it is not rolling end over end, but turning slightly on its axis, like english. That action causes a bank shot to run longer.

On a Diamond this effect is reduced considerably. That is, when you contact a cushion with easy speed on a Diamond, there is much less curl and the ball will more quickly run end over end and take a "purer" straighter path to the pocket. (When the object ball is curling the ball tends to keep "widening.")

That's why I think it is much easier to bank on a Diamond -- if you know how to use the table. All you have to do is get your bank started into a banking lane, easy speed, and it will continue straight into the pocket. Especially on straight backs. On a GC many times you will hit a straight back into what looks like a cinch make-angle, but at the last moment it turns into the long cushion and hangs up. Most of the time if you come that close on a Diamond you will be rewarded with the bank scoring.

Click to expand...

Fred, if there is a "curl" which widens the angle after it rebounds from the rail on a GC, I'm wondering if it's due to stiffer rubber? If the rubber is softer on a Diamond, that would account for it's shorter rebound angle.

I'd really like to see some high-speed videos recorded on a GC in contrast to a Diamond. It would be nice if Dr. Dave or Jewett would do that.

Nevertheless, here are two slow-mo clips from Dr. Dave's site showing a fast speed bank and then a slow speed bank. I don't know what type of table he was using. ~Doc

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV6-13.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV6-14.htm

Rail height. Also the pitch of the rail. These are the reason you can kill a ball into position a little diffeent on a GC than a Diamond(such as a 3-rl position shot, killing on the 4th rail). Also explains why some tables, you "play the angle" and some "play the spin" on banks and kicks. WAY further complicated by simply adding speed

Slate-wise...: Cut finish or flat honed finish (newer diamond/gabriels and all 3c tables I have seen) Really affects speed, most notably the extra length the ball rolls before stopping.

Pocket-wise, you have..... ANGLE of pocket(Framing differs- therefore shimming in is complicated sometimes) And dont forget Pitch. Slate depth at pocket...and so on....

When comparing to slates that are vintage, slate thickness does come into play as well.

I feel that tables with wider rails(not CUSHIONS) are Firmer, and promote Deeper ball depth into the cushion given the same speed - thus different properties concerning the effects of spin. Note this point is easily argued against by close rail-to-slate bolt patterns, but I play AND repair..and have formed my own opinon. That said, I have no preference towards either condition.

vapros said:

Nearly all in the rails, I would think. Could you still tell the difference if they all had the same rails?

Click to expand...

I don't think it's been mentioned but could cushion composition be a factor also? Diamond's seem to come standard with Artemis while GC can have Artemis or some other brand. Those other brands might have a different mixture of raw materials. Hope you guys understand.

Curl

Curl

gulfportdoc said:

Fred, if there is a "curl" which widens the angle after it rebounds from the rail on a GC, I'm wondering if it's due to stiffer rubber? If the rubber is softer on a Diamond, that would account for it's shorter rebound angle.

I'd really like to see some high-speed videos recorded on a GC in contrast to a Diamond. It would be nice if Dr. Dave or Jewett would do that.

Nevertheless, here are two slow-mo clips from Dr. Dave's site showing a fast speed bank and then a slow speed bank. I don't know what type of table he was using. ~Doc

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV6-13.htm

http://billiards.colostate.edu/high_speed_videos/HSV6-14.htm

Click to expand...

For more info on the "curl" refer to Kohler's, The Science of Pocket Billiards.
Dr Dave's video changes the perameters of what I said because he is using english and a pretty severe cut on the object ball. English and hard speed kill most of the curl effect.

Beard

I believe the rubber on a Diamond would be considered harder, or stiffer.

fred bentivegna said:

I believe the rubber on a Diamond would be considered harder, or stiffer.

Click to expand...

If the cushions on a Diamond are stiffer, then it seems to me that the ball should rebound longer (wider angle), unless --as NFS mentioned-- the deeper rails allow the cushions to compress more than on a GC.

I can see that I'm going to have to go to AZ and try to flag the science guys down... Dr. Dave's site doesn't have a "contact" menu.

Doc

doc, my completely baseless thought in regards to the curl effect is that a softer cushion will lead to more depression and longer contact time at impact.

That will impart more 'running' english on an object ball, which can amplify the curl effect.

The ball will bounce off a stiffer rubber more quickly with less time to pick up side spin.

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