onepockethacker
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Lmfao i still love you. Im still laughing my ass off about your post about the stiff who showed up and ate everything and took home a doggie bag. THAT IS THE FUNNIEST POST EVER
Louis DeMarco vs. Tony Fargo 2003 D.C.C.
- Thread starter Cowboy Dennis
- Start date
Lmfao i still love you. Im still laughing my ass off about your post about the stiff who showed up and ate everything and took home a doggie bag. THAT IS THE FUNNIEST POST EVER
Cowboy Dennis
Verified Member
Unless I missed it skimming over these posts I don't think I've seen yet the reason why the 3 straight-back to DeMarco's right is not the shot. Let me show you how easy that shot is to mess up first. This is the layout several shots before the original layout that I started this thread with (I know I'm confusing the old guys
). DeMarco banked the 8 straight-back from an easier position. That's why it's down next to the 6, it's an easy shot to hit bad. The cueball actually hit the 8 a second time just after it came off the side rail, disaster was narrowly averted.
The reason the 3 ball is not the shot is this: if you shoot it to either pocket you are giving up a move. Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I didn't see it.
Cowboy "not the best shooter, not the best mover, but I know how to play" Dennis
). DeMarco banked the 8 straight-back from an easier position. That's why it's down next to the 6, it's an easy shot to hit bad. The cueball actually hit the 8 a second time just after it came off the side rail, disaster was narrowly averted.The reason the 3 ball is not the shot is this: if you shoot it to either pocket you are giving up a move. Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I didn't see it.
Cowboy "not the best shooter, not the best mover, but I know how to play" Dennis
onepockethacker
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Unless I missed it skimming over these posts I don't think I've seen yet the reason why the 3 straight-back to DeMarco's right is not the shot. Let me show you how easy that shot is to mess up first. This is the layout several shots before the original layout that I started this thread with (I know I'm confusing the old guys
View attachment 5551
The reason the 3 ball is not the shot is this: if you shoot it to either pocket you are giving up a move. Sorry if this has been mentioned already but I didn't see it.
Cowboy "not the best shooter, not the best mover, but I know how to play" Dennis
He managed to hit it as bad as humanly possible and yet he still didnt leave a shot
lll
Verified Member
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
What does the majority of ordinary chess players want to have to do with trying to outmove the old Bobby Fischer? I gave you the right shot. I will take that to my grave. If I couldnt go rail first off of the ball and return 3 or 4 rails up the table I would french kiss SJD. Maybe spearing in a 9 foot straight back like DeMarco did was easier.
One other consideration is that even if somehow you scratch, (very unlikely), you would spot up the ball you made, plus the one that you owe. 3 balls on the spot, no shot for your opponent. There are still FIVE makeable balls on the table! Now you are back to where you can still WIN on one shot, just like your opponent.
I released one of the most important pool axioms you can ever learn. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, manipulate your shot choice to where you can win on one shot AND YOUR OPPONENT CAN'T. That is stronger than acid. Not only my heart, but every turned out player's heart, gets big when we are shooting at a shot -- however difficult -- that can get us the win, but won't cost us the game!
Real pressure comes from looking around the table and visualizing your oppo winning the game if you miss.
One of the drawbacks in going over shot selection in bank pool ON THIS FORUM, is that the shots are looked upon mostly from a one pocket players perspective. That is: In one pocket you can lock the game up by taking balls out of play, putting them up table and against the rails and next to each other, etc. But you are only defending against ONE pocket. So a four or five ball lead in one pocket with balls in the aforementioned positions is a solid advantage.
But in bank pool you are defending against SIX pockets. No matter what the score, especially in short rack, if the balls are not hanging in the pocket and enough of them are out there for someone to be able to win with, whoever has the lead is always at risk. Say you are losing 4 to 0 but there are five balls in play, you dont have to bank five and out. How about 2 or 3, then a safe, and then 2 or 3 and out? It doesnt matter where the balls are scattered around the table, as long as they aint hanging, they can be banked.
Beard
There it is. Take it or leave it. Dont matter to me. I am certainly not the one trying to learn the game.
Well, that is a small consolation, Larry. So far you are the only one to whom that it does.
Beard
It sure beats nobody, tho.
What does the majority of ordinary chess players want to have to do with trying to outmove the old Bobby Fischer? I gave you the right shot. I will take that to my grave. If I couldnt go rail first off of the ball and return 3 or 4 rails up the table I would french kiss SJD. Maybe spearing in a 9 foot straight back like DeMarco did was easier.
One other consideration is that even if somehow you scratch, (very unlikely), you would spot up the ball you made, plus the one that you owe. 3 balls on the spot, no shot for your opponent. There are still FIVE makeable balls on the table! Now you are back to where you can still WIN on one shot, just like your opponent.
I released one of the most important pool axioms you can ever learn. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, manipulate your shot choice to where you can win on one shot AND YOUR OPPONENT CAN'T. That is stronger than acid. Not only my heart, but every turned out player's heart, gets big when we are shooting at a shot -- however difficult -- that can get us the win, but won't cost us the game!
Real pressure comes from looking around the table and visualizing your oppo winning the game if you miss.
One of the drawbacks in going over shot selection in bank pool ON THIS FORUM, is that the shots are looked upon mostly from a one pocket players perspective. That is: In one pocket you can lock the game up by taking balls out of play, putting them up table and against the rails and next to each other, etc. But you are only defending against ONE pocket. So a four or five ball lead in one pocket with balls in the aforementioned positions is a solid advantage.
But in bank pool you are defending against SIX pockets. No matter what the score, especially in short rack, if the balls are not hanging in the pocket and enough of them are out there for someone to be able to win with, whoever has the lead is always at risk. Say you are losing 4 to 0 but there are five balls in play, you dont have to bank five and out. How about 2 or 3, then a safe, and then 2 or 3 and out? It doesnt matter where the balls are scattered around the table, as long as they aint hanging, they can be banked.
Beard
There it is. Take it or leave it. Dont matter to me. I am certainly not the one trying to learn the game.
this makes alot of sense to me
Well, that is a small consolation, Larry. So far you are the only one to whom that it does.
Beard
It sure beats nobody, tho.
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
Louis De Marco
Louis De Marco
Incidentally, someone brought Louis DeMarco to Chicago to get some bank lessons from me. We amicably parted company, lesson-wise, in about 30 minutes. There was no way he was going to be able to stop shooting at shots like the 3 ball. Neil Jacobs, same thing. I quit his lessons quickly also, because of the same Wyatt Earp mindset.
Meanwhile, neither guy has had their game progress an inch in 5 years. I spent a couple weeks with an attentive Jet Johnson and he immediately started beating everybody in the country, including two Truman Hogue strummings. Big improvement at age 50 plus! Coincidence? You tell me.
Beard
Louis De Marco
Incidentally, someone brought Louis DeMarco to Chicago to get some bank lessons from me. We amicably parted company, lesson-wise, in about 30 minutes. There was no way he was going to be able to stop shooting at shots like the 3 ball. Neil Jacobs, same thing. I quit his lessons quickly also, because of the same Wyatt Earp mindset.
Meanwhile, neither guy has had their game progress an inch in 5 years. I spent a couple weeks with an attentive Jet Johnson and he immediately started beating everybody in the country, including two Truman Hogue strummings. Big improvement at age 50 plus! Coincidence? You tell me.
Beard
wincardona
Verified Member
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
What does the majority of ordinary chess players want to have to do with trying to outmove the old Bobby Fischer? I gave you the right shot. I will take that to my grave. If I couldnt go rail first off of the ball and return 3 or 4 rails up the table I would french kiss SJD. Maybe spearing in a 9 foot straight back like DeMarco did was easier.
One other consideration is that even if somehow you scratch, (very unlikely), you would spot up the ball you made, plus the one that you owe. 3 balls on the spot, no shot for your opponent. There are still FIVE makeable balls on the table! Now you are back to where you can still WIN on one shot, just like your opponent.
I released one of the most important pool axioms you can ever learn. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, manipulate your shot choice to where you can win on one shot AND YOUR OPPONENT CAN'T. That is stronger than acid. Not only my heart, but every turned out player's heart, gets big when we are shooting at a shot -- however difficult -- that can get us the win, but won't cost us the game!
Real pressure comes from looking around the table and visualizing your oppo winning the game if you miss.
One of the drawbacks in going over shot selection in bank pool ON THIS FORUM, is that the shots are looked upon mostly from a one pocket players perspective. That is: In one pocket you can lock the game up by taking balls out of play, putting them up table and against the rails and next to each other, etc. But you are only defending against ONE pocket. So a four or five ball lead in one pocket with balls in the aforementioned positions is a solid advantage.
But in bank pool you are defending against SIX pockets. No matter what the score, especially in short rack, if the balls are not hanging in the pocket and enough of them are out there for someone to be able to win with, whoever has the lead is always at risk. Say you are losing 4 to 0 but there are five balls in play, you dont have to bank five and out. How about 2 or 3, then a safe, and then 2 or 3 and out? It doesnt matter where the balls are scattered around the table, as long as they aint hanging, they can be banked.
Beard
There it is. Take it or leave it. Dont matter to me. I am certainly not the one trying to learn the game.
Quote:
Freddie, I like your reasoning but your shot going rail first here is not a good shot, trust me I have shot it about 10 times with very mixed results. The ball is too deep in the pocket, plus the angle and distance is too difficult to get any consistency with the shot. If the angle was straighter and the ball wasn't buried that deeply in the pocket I would shoot your shot for sure. But not from the position shown.:sorry It's actually possible to miss the entire ball. Then there is the possibility to go short on the shot, where the cue ball comes close to hitting the spotted ball off the side rail.Too many problems with the shot at the angle and distance shown.:sorry
Dr. Bill
What does the majority of ordinary chess players want to have to do with trying to outmove the old Bobby Fischer? I gave you the right shot. I will take that to my grave. If I couldnt go rail first off of the ball and return 3 or 4 rails up the table I would french kiss SJD. Maybe spearing in a 9 foot straight back like DeMarco did was easier.
One other consideration is that even if somehow you scratch, (very unlikely), you would spot up the ball you made, plus the one that you owe. 3 balls on the spot, no shot for your opponent. There are still FIVE makeable balls on the table! Now you are back to where you can still WIN on one shot, just like your opponent.
I released one of the most important pool axioms you can ever learn. IF AT ALL POSSIBLE, manipulate your shot choice to where you can win on one shot AND YOUR OPPONENT CAN'T. That is stronger than acid. Not only my heart, but every turned out player's heart, gets big when we are shooting at a shot -- however difficult -- that can get us the win, but won't cost us the game!
Real pressure comes from looking around the table and visualizing your oppo winning the game if you miss.
One of the drawbacks in going over shot selection in bank pool ON THIS FORUM, is that the shots are looked upon mostly from a one pocket players perspective. That is: In one pocket you can lock the game up by taking balls out of play, putting them up table and against the rails and next to each other, etc. But you are only defending against ONE pocket. So a four or five ball lead in one pocket with balls in the aforementioned positions is a solid advantage.
But in bank pool you are defending against SIX pockets. No matter what the score, especially in short rack, if the balls are not hanging in the pocket and enough of them are out there for someone to be able to win with, whoever has the lead is always at risk. Say you are losing 4 to 0 but there are five balls in play, you dont have to bank five and out. How about 2 or 3, then a safe, and then 2 or 3 and out? It doesnt matter where the balls are scattered around the table, as long as they aint hanging, they can be banked.
Beard
There it is. Take it or leave it. Dont matter to me. I am certainly not the one trying to learn the game.
Quote:
Freddie, I like your reasoning but your shot going rail first here is not a good shot, trust me I have shot it about 10 times with very mixed results. The ball is too deep in the pocket, plus the angle and distance is too difficult to get any consistency with the shot. If the angle was straighter and the ball wasn't buried that deeply in the pocket I would shoot your shot for sure. But not from the position shown.:sorry It's actually possible to miss the entire ball. Then there is the possibility to go short on the shot, where the cue ball comes close to hitting the spotted ball off the side rail.Too many problems with the shot at the angle and distance shown.:sorry
Dr. Bill
lll
Verified Member
DR.Bill
you are such a stickler for detail
you have said in the past that sometimes we dont see the difference a few inches makes for your shot selection
lets give freddy the benefit of the doubt
HE EARNED IT
its the principles that count
you know
teach a guy to fish instead of giving him a fish or something like that
just sayin
onepockethacker
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If i ever decide to get really serious again i might come to Chicago for some bank lessons.
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
Minutia be damned
Minutia be damned
I dont know how far that ball is buried in the pocket. That is not really the point. Nobody is going to learn anything if the diagram is based on a shot somehow hidden in the pocket. The majority of balls that are hanging in the pocket are not buried to where you cant hit them -- maybe only 95% of hangers are hittable. Jeez.
What is valuable is to consider the logic behind rail firsting that hanger.
Beard
Minutia be damned
DR.Bill
you are such a stickler for detail
you have said in the past that sometimes we dont see the difference a few inches makes for your shot selection
lets give freddy the benefit of the doubt
HE EARNED IT
its the principles that count
you know
teach a guy to fish instead of giving him a fish or something like that
just sayin
I dont know how far that ball is buried in the pocket. That is not really the point. Nobody is going to learn anything if the diagram is based on a shot somehow hidden in the pocket. The majority of balls that are hanging in the pocket are not buried to where you cant hit them -- maybe only 95% of hangers are hittable. Jeez.
What is valuable is to consider the logic behind rail firsting that hanger.
Beard
Cowboy Dennis
Verified Member
I dont know how far that ball is buried in the pocketThen how could you advocate shooting it?. That is not really the pointThat is precisely the point
What is valuable is to consider the logic behind rail firsting that hangerIf you're going to start using logic then I quit
Beard
Freddy,
Even if the 4 was sticking it's nose out a little more I still like the 6/8 shot. Reason being I'm up a move and want to retain it, I don't consider the cueball flying around and stopping maybe 2 feet from where I'd like it to stop to be exactly ideal.
I know where the cueball is going to be after I shoot, you don't, that's the difference to me.
P.S. I think people learn when we have differences of opinion and discuss the options. We all have good logic for our choice of shots (except for Broomback
) and they could change if we were standing at the table.Dennis
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
Reiterating my reiteration
Reiterating my reiteration
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
I dont know how far that ball is buried in the pocketThen how could you advocate shooting it?. That is not really the pointThat is precisely the point. Nobody is going to learn anything if the diagram is based on a shot somehow hidden in the pocket. The majority of balls that are hanging in the pocket are not buried to where you cant hit themThat means nothing to the layout at hand -- maybe only 95% of hangers are hittable. Jeez.
What is valuable is to consider the logic behind rail firsting that hangerIf you're going to start using logic then I quit.
Beard
...Differences of opinions... That's why people go to race tracks. However, most people who exercise their opinion at the track aren't successful at it.
Beard
Reiterating my reiteration
Originally Posted by fred bentivegna
I dont know how far that ball is buried in the pocketThen how could you advocate shooting it?. That is not really the pointThat is precisely the point. Nobody is going to learn anything if the diagram is based on a shot somehow hidden in the pocket. The majority of balls that are hanging in the pocket are not buried to where you cant hit themThat means nothing to the layout at hand -- maybe only 95% of hangers are hittable. Jeez.
What is valuable is to consider the logic behind rail firsting that hangerIf you're going to start using logic then I quit.
Beard
Freddy,
Even if the 4 was sticking it's nose out a little more I still like the 6/8 shot. Reason being I'm up a move and want to retain it, (correction. You are only a move up when you consider who is going to make the NEXT ball. In the grand scheme of things, as long as he can win on the next shot and you cant, you are actually one serious move down.)I don't consider the cueball flying around and stopping maybe 2 feet from where I'd like it to stop to be exactly ideal.
I know where the cueball is going to be after I shoot, you don't, that's the difference to me. What i do know is that after I shoot my shot I can win he game in my next inning, while you cant.
P.S. I think people learn when we have differences of opinion and discuss the options. We all have good logic for our choice of shots (except for Broomback
Dennis
...Differences of opinions... That's why people go to race tracks. However, most people who exercise their opinion at the track aren't successful at it.
Beard
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Cowboy Dennis
Verified Member
If I came down there with say, maybe $10000, how much do you think we could win at the track?
Cowboy "Kentucky Derby" Dennis
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
Edits...
Edits...
...just like DickBrain, I have made at least 5 edits to the post below, #72.
I was a lifetime horse player who finally took the cure about 3 years ago. It was much easier than when I gave up drinks, drugs and women.
Beard
Edits...
If I came down there with say, maybe $10000, how much do you think we could win at the track?
Cowboy "Kentucky Derby" Dennis
...just like DickBrain, I have made at least 5 edits to the post below, #72.
I was a lifetime horse player who finally took the cure about 3 years ago. It was much easier than when I gave up drinks, drugs and women.
Beard
John Brumback
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Freddy,
Even if the 4 was sticking it's nose out a little more I still like the 6/8 shot. Reason being I'm up a move and want to retain it, I don't consider the cueball flying around and stopping maybe 2 feet from where I'd like it to stop to be exactly ideal.
I know where the cueball is going to be after I shoot, you don't, that's the difference to me.
P.S. I think people learn when we have differences of opinion and discuss the options. We all have good logic for our choice of shots (except for Broomback
Dennis
Hey buddy.I might resent that remark but i'm not really sure? Explain yourself better next time!
:frus:lol John B.wincardona
Verified Member
Freddy,
Even if the 4 was sticking it's nose out a little more I still like the 6/8 shot. Reason being I'm up a move and want to retain it, I don't consider the cueball flying around and stopping maybe 2 feet from where I'd like it to stop to be exactly ideal.
I know where the cueball is going to be after I shoot, you don't, that's the difference to me.
P.S. I think people learn when we have differences of opinion and discuss the options. We all have good logic for our choice of shots (except for Broomback
Dennis
Let me try to put this debate in another prospective. Yes I agree with you when you say that you don't like a shot if the cue ball fly's around the table and you don't know where it may end up. Either do I, or any one else that likes winning. I believe that Freddie looked at the shot and was quick to judge it, not realizing the difficulty of the hit, in terms of distance, angle, and the accuracy needed to justify his choice. But you cannot undermine the value of this kind of a shot, if the ball position is conducive for a positive result. I have shot this shot 1,000's of times throughout the years, and have benefited greatly shooting it. But most importantly, the advantages of this type of a shot (rail first) should never be devalued just because it may not fit the scenario.
As far as being a move up shooting Brumback's shot, you are correct it's a good shot. But that doesn't mean that Fred's shot shouldn't be an option, and a good one providing it fits the scenario. Both shots have merit, and definitely should be considered if they fit the scenario.
Final word. It would benefit us all to learn as many shots as possible, especially ones that would be most beneficial in certain situations.
Dr. Bill
SJDinPHX
Suspended
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- 9,226
RBL...Please tell Beardbrain...
In hindsight...He should have given up BANK POOL AND ONE POCKET, instead..
PS..I have seen some of his women..and, (like your's,).. that should have been a real easy habit to kick !.
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Cowboy Dennis
Verified Member
Hey buddy.I might resent that remark but i'm not really sure? Explain yourself better next time!
Dearest "Old Tire At The Bottom Of A Pond" Breath,
I know that you know that I was just kidding but someone has to keep a close watch on Freddy
. He sometimes says things on a DVD commentary that he then contradicts here on this forum (please don't ask for examples) All in all it's been a fun thread and they should be fun, right?Dennis
fred bentivegna
Verified Member
They might call that...
They might call that...
....Entertainment. Or in the case of the forum, Literary License.
Beard
They might call that...
Dearest "Old Tire At The Bottom Of A Pond" Breath,
I know that you know that I was just kidding but someone has to keep a close watch on Freddy
Dennis
....Entertainment. Or in the case of the forum, Literary License.
Beard