Efren Reyes vs. Gary Spaeth 1999 D.C.C.#2

wincardona said:

My bad, there's one thing that I didn't address and in all fairness it should be brought up. By not kicking and just touching the cue ball you now become the favorite to get the next ball. This was John's thoughts as well as the Beards, and it sorta changes things to my perspective, by looking at the whole picture. But the kick by a good kicker isn't all that bad, and could work out. If you're a good kicker it's a close call, if your not a good kicker, you would be better served by pushing.

My grandfather once told me that two heads are better than one, even if one's a cabbage head. Now with me, Brumback, and the Beard we have three heads, one being a cabbage head. And that's even better.

Dr. Bill

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I'm kicking.I am not giving up one of my balls.But yeah if you suck that bad and can't kick within a foot,maybe you should just pass even though you probably wouldn't be leading in this game anyway:lol John B.

onepockethacker said:

What hapens if you touch the cueball for an intentional and your opponent does the same thing back?

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Then you both lose a ball.

Well, that all depends on where he pushes to. I hope that I didn't mislead you when I said that Reyes (or the shooter) should touch the cue ball and take an intentional, did I? If so, I meant to say that the shooter should push an inch away from the corner, allowing his opponent to see the balls. And now, after the push your opponent will have to decide what's best for him to do. If he doesn't want to shoot from there (which I would find hard to believe) he then must take an intentional back. And then the initial pusher has made a good decision by pushing in the first place. But I suspect that after the first push the shooter will play some sort of a safety, I would.

Dr. Bill

Two choices

Two choices

onepockethacker said:

What hapens if you touch the cueball for an intentional and your opponent does the same thing back?

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You have two choices, one is the conservative option, and that is to roll out to the middle of the head rail. You now owe two, and have protected yourself against 3 in a row. If he takes one back, which he probably wont, great, if he plays the best-- I think-- safety and kicks 1 rail at the 2,7 he has put you into an easy position to go back up table on a safety. The tally is minus 2, you, and minus 1, him, and you have taken him off of the hill. Not bad considering where you started from.

Option 2, most aggressive, is to FOUL BACK again! This is liable to give your oppo a brain cramp and set him into panic mode wondering what you are up to.
He may panic, take another scratch, and just roll out to the middle of the head rail (would need a good brain freeze for that one), may take a scratch back, putting him now 3 balls away from the money, or he might choose to take the kick at the 2,7 that he should have done in the 1st place, which should release you from the 3 scratches in a row problem.
If he is hard core and takes the 2nd scratch putting you on two, you still have a pretty reasonable kick at the 2,7.

Beard

Bobby Fischer used to ask me how to proceed in these situations.

fred bentivegna said:

You have two choices, one is the conservative option, and that is to roll out to the middle of the head rail. You now owe two, and have protected yourself against 3 in a row. If he takes one back, which he probably wont, great, if he plays the best-- I think-- safety and kicks 1 rail at the 2,7 he has put you into an easy position to go back up table on a safety. The tally is minus 2, you, and minus 1, him, and you have taken him off of the hill. Not bad considering where you started from.

Option 2, most aggressive, is to FOUL BACK again! This is liable to give your oppo a brain cramp and set him into panic mode wondering what you are up to.
He may panic, take another scratch, and just roll out to the middle of the head rail (would need a good brain freeze for that one), may take a scratch back, putting him now 3 balls away from the money, or he might choose to take the kick at the 2,7 that he should have done in the 1st place, which should release you from the 3 scratches in a row problem.
If he is hard core and takes the 2nd scratch putting you on two, you still have a pretty reasonable kick at the 2,7.

Beard

Bobby Fischer used to ask me how to proceed in these situations.

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Your option #2 has given me a brain cramp, and frankly i'm at a loss for words, you finally have convinced me that I have very limited thinking ability.

That's the main reason I would of kicked to begin with, too much thinking.

Where's Dennis when we need him?:help

Dr. Bill

wincardona said:

Your option #2 has given me a brain cramp, and frankly i'm at a loss for words, you finally have convinced me that I have very limited thinking ability.

That's the main reason I would of kicked to begin with, too much thinking.

Where's Dennis when we need him?:help

Dr. Bill

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I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole:sorry

That's what I use you for

RBL

Cowboy Dennis said:

I'm not touching that with a 10 foot pole:sorry

That's what I use you for

RBL

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Thanks, but we need you now to show us what Reyes did, so we can get away from all this confusion. I'm starting to drift to the dark side, with Fred.

Dr. Bill

I really don't know for certain what I'd do from this spot. I think if I tried to kick at the 4/7 or even the 9 and didn't hit them I would be no worse off than if I pushed out or just touched the cueball and took a foul.

That's me. The world's greatest kicker shot and kicked the 8 gently to the rail. He left Gary a cross-side at the 8 but he missed it.

Kicking at the 8 never entered my mind when I first saw this position. It looks so obvious now. But it would have been very easy for Efren to give up an easy cross-side on the 3. But he didn't.

wincardona said:

I'm starting to drift to the dark side, with Fred.

Dr. Bill

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Yeah, and you've got JB flip-flopping around like a half-dead fish laying on the dock.

RBL

Jeez, Jeez...

Jeez, Jeez...

I just went back to post #1 and suddenly realized I have been arguing from the wrong point of view this whole time! I THOUGHT IT WAS GARY'S SHOT! And he was behind 3 to zip! What the f'ck!

Now that I know what was the actual situation, my solution is simple. Efren to kick at the 2 ball cub. (He has to leave some kind of shot (which he did) when he kicked at the 8.)

Anyway, my point of view if it was Gary under the hammer is still relevant, interesting and perhaps worth considering.

Apologies to Brumster and Dr Bill. They are not as dumb as I had once thought.


Beard

fred bentivegna said:

I just went back to post #1 and suddenly realized I have been arguing from the wrong point of view this whole time! I THOUGHT IT WAS GARY'S SHOT! And he was behind 3 to zip! What the f'ck! If it was Gary's shot then touching the cue ball and force Reyes to do the same would of been his best option.

Now that I know what was the actual situation, my solution is simple. Efren to kick at the 2 ball cub. (He has to leave some kind of shot (which he did) when he kicked at the 8.)

Anyway, my point of view if it was Gary under the hammer is still relevant, interesting and perhaps worth considering.

Apologies to Brumster and Dr Bill. They are not as dumb as I had once thought.


Beard

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At least we have you back tracking, that's a start.

Dr. Bill

Cowboy Dennis said:

I really don't know for certain what I'd do from this spot. I think if I tried to kick at the 4/7 or even the 9 and didn't hit them I would be no worse off than if I pushed out or just touched the cueball and took a foul.

That's me. The world's greatest kicker shot and kicked the 8 gently to the rail. He left Gary a cross-side at the 8 but he missed it.

Kicking at the 8 never entered my mind when I first saw this position. It looks so obvious now. But it would have been very easy for Efren to give up an easy cross-side on the 3. But he didn't.


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I believe he kicked at the 8 ball because it was an easier kick than the one I mentioned. It looked like the rail of the corner had him hooked from the natural angle. Too much adjustment with that kick, so he looked at the 8 ball and liked it.

Dr. Bill

No back tracking

No back tracking

wincardona said:

At least we have you back tracking, that's a start.

Dr. Bill

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I didnt back track. I was just answering the wrong question. I take back nada.

I wuz right both ways.

Beard

fred bentivegna said:

I didnt back track. I was just answering the wrong question. I take back nada.

I wuz right both ways.

Beard

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I'm tired of seeing this ridiculously, absurd post. Time to move it.:sorry

Dr. Bill