The difference in equipment, then and now

Miller

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Bill, I've owned clay balls, Hyatt, Raschigs, Centennials, Aramiths (Super and TV), Duramith, and Cyclop. I've had or have black dot, blue circle, red triangle, red circle (various sizes), Aramith logo, measles (real and fake), and Clyclop CBs. I also still have Mosconi's cue ball :)

From what I saw on the JC video they were not using clay balls, so I believe the point you are trying to make is moot. Maybe Hyatts, which were pretty lively.

Lou Figueroa

how on earth did you come across masconi's cue ball? :eek::p:sorry

(inquiring mind(s) would like to know)
:D
 

petie

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^^^^^^

just an innocent inquiry :lol

There were 8 or so personal cue balls, all of them Ivory, auctioned off with Mosconi's estate. Don't know if Lou got one of these or if there was a commercial cue ball sold under his name as were some other pool products at one time.
 
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lfigueroa

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how on earth did you come across masconi's cue ball? :eek::p:sorry

(inquiring mind(s) would like to know)
:D


Yes, I can remember it as if it were yesterday (insert flashback music).

I think I got interested in pool right around 1968 or '69. A friend and I went to a bowling alley with his dad and mom one weekend and while they bowled, we discovered the pool room that was part of the bowling alley. My family lived in San Francisco, down by the Cow Palace, and bowling alleys with pool rooms in them were a pretty common setup back then, around there. In fact, just a short walk away from our house was Castle Lanes, where, very early on in life, I learned courtesy of a summer bowling league, that I had absolutely no talent for that game.

But occasionally I'd wander into the pool room there. It had perhaps nine or so old Brunswicks and I'd watch all these old guys bat the balls around. They seemed to favor some odd game where it only mattered if you made a ball in one particular pocket, or perhaps the other. I wouldn't decipher what they doing until much later on in life... Not long after my buddy and I became proud owners of our very own personal pool cues, I learned that Willie Mosconi would be making his annual appearance at Castle Lanes. This was huge. I had watched "The Hustler" several times by now and knew the lore.

So the day of the exhibition, I get out of school early and zoom down to Castle Lanes to get a front row seat. They had recovered the front table and all the old guys already had their favored perches secured. Nonetheless, I squeezed in. Then "he" walked into the pool room. Mosconi was always nattily dressed in sports coat and tie. He'd come into the room with a box of balls and a luggage-style cue case. His hair was pure white and he always had this very elegant, tailored look about him. To warm up, he'd rack all fifteen balls, separate the head ball and set up a break shot off to the left of the rack. The break shots he seemed to favor were always a little steeper than I would have thought comfortable, but they certainly didn't slow him up.

He'd run off two racks and then be done, ready to play his opponent, 150 points of 14.1. Depending on whom he was playing, he'd often kick into the back of the stack and play the head ball two rails into the side, just to give his opponent the chance at a running start. He'd always run at least a 100 and I saw him go 150 and out twice. If he had missed somewhere along the way and got out running a 50, or something like that, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And we'd all go, "Well, yes." And he'd keep shooting and always get the 100. Then he'd shoot some trick shots, including some pretty nifty masses, and then hang around and talk and sign autographs. (It's the only autograph I have ever asked for in my life.)

Perhaps the last time I saw him was towards the late 70s, like maybe 1976, at an appearance in downtown San Francisco at a walk-up bowling alley named, appropriately enough, Downtown Bowl. He did the usual exhibition that I had seen several times before and it was still fascinating. Particularly, as I've mentioned before, because of the way his cue ball behaved. It was extraordinary how it would muscle into the balls and keep diving into them again and again until it had plowed through them all and come out the other side of the cluster or stack, totally unscathed.

So after his exhibition he's standing around, leaning against the table and talking to all the old timers and they're asking all the usual, "Did you ever play...?" "What'd you think of so and so's game?" and I'm trying to get closer to listen in on all this and I'm right by the side pocket of the table he's just finished his exhibition on and I look down and there it is.

Right there, at the bottom of the side pocket, is Mosconi's Cue Ball.

The blue circle on it is staring right back up at me and somehow, it was challenging me. Everyone is focused on Mosconi. No one is looking at me. I stare back into the abyss and realize I have but one moment to make a critical, and yes, criminal, decision. I look down into the pocket and I swear, Mosconi's Cue Ball is virtually howling with laughter at me. I quickly seize the little sucker, muffling it as best I can, stuff it into the pocket of my coat, and dash down the stairs of the establishment scared to death that if Mosconi discovers His Cue Ball is missing, they'll lock down the whole bowling alley -- and perhaps even cordon off the entire downtown district -- until they find the missing orb.

Now, some 40 years later, I still feel bad about the larceny I committed in my callow youth. But it's done and I can't undo it and so Mosconi's Cue Ball now sits, somewhat more meekly and quietly, on my bookshelf of pool books. But I think it still knows it's Mosconi's Cue Ball and now, just every once in a while when I'm sitting at the computer writing about the trials and tribulations of my pool game, I occasionally hear a tiny little giggle coming from behind my back, from somewhere on my book case.

Lou Figueroa
 
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gulfportdoc

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Very enjoyable story, Lou. I'm wondering if you ever weighed that cue ball? It should be 6 ounces, but could it be heavier?.....:cool:

Mosconi is probably the greatest 14.1 player of all time, although my personal favorite was I. Crane.

I saw Mosconi in an exhibition in Cincinnati in 1962. He was having a little trouble that particular day (possibly hung over?), and he was berating the kid who'd stepped up to play him. But he was very impressive, and was a ball running machine.

His last world title was in 1956. Looks like the event wasn't held again until 1963 (Lassiter), and Mosconi may have retired from competition by then.

~Doc
 

Cary

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The available video from JC makes it abundantly clear that no one was having trouble -- or having to use much of a stroke -- to move the balls around. Some want to talk about how tough it was back then to move the balls around, how slow and nappy the cloth was, etc. The videos show udderwise.

Lou Figueroa

Awhile back I watched a video in which Hoppe made a nine rail 3c shot. Sending the cue nine rails didn't look hard at all. Must have been the equipment.
 

Cary

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Very enjoyable story, Lou. I'm wondering if you ever weighed that cue ball? It should be 6 ounces, but could it be heavier?.....:cool:

Mosconi is probably the greatest 14.1 player of all time, although my personal favorite was I. Crane.

I saw Mosconi in an exhibition in Cincinnati in 1962. He was having a little trouble that particular day (possibly hung over?), and he was berating the kid who'd stepped up to play him. But he was very impressive, and was a ball running machine.

His last world title was in 1956. Looks like the event wasn't held again until 1963 (Lassiter), and Mosconi may have retired from competition by then.

~Doc

Mosconi suffered a stroke in 1958 and retired from competition upon his Dr's advice. From then on it was exhibitions only, with an occasional after hours action match. One of which I watched in August 1966 in the Florida Keys. Mosconi lost two out of three 150pt games to a local conch nobody's ever heard of. He won the first at $1 a ball, lost the next two at higher stakes and pulled up. Did NOT seem happy about it.

ETA: The local remains the best I've seen. His daily practice was to run 300 on a 10 ft table. If he missed, he started over (or so I was told--I never saw it happen).
 

lfigueroa

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Very enjoyable story, Lou. I'm wondering if you ever weighed that cue ball? It should be 6 ounces, but could it be heavier?.....:cool:

Mosconi is probably the greatest 14.1 player of all time, although my personal favorite was I. Crane.

I saw Mosconi in an exhibition in Cincinnati in 1962. He was having a little trouble that particular day (possibly hung over?), and he was berating the kid who'd stepped up to play him. But he was very impressive, and was a ball running machine.

His last world title was in 1956. Looks like the event wasn't held again until 1963 (Lassiter), and Mosconi may have retired from competition by then.

~Doc


Thanks, Doc. Never weighed or measured the CB. The only unusual thing I noted about it was that it had some kind of wax on it.

Lou Figueroa
 

lfigueroa

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Awhile back I watched a video in which Hoppe made a nine rail 3c shot. Sending the cue nine rails didn't look hard at all. Must have been the equipment.


Nine rails is nothing.

About 15 years ago many of us were at an old time pool hall in St. Louis. The joint had one of those old-style 10' Brunswick billiard tables with the three inch slate and the huge elephant thick legs on it, ivory diamonds in the rails. These tables are generally known around the country as "Big Berthas."

Anywhos, Harry Sims, one time US National 3-Cushion Champion was telling us all how tough it was to hit an 11-railer and how he was one of the few players that could do it...

Well, being the great, unwashed, young nonbelievers we all were we started messing around with the shot.

"Banking Billy" Stiles started setting up the shot on the old Arcade and shooting it. In about 20 minutes he found "the spot" and made the 11-railer on the old Brunswick. Then a bunch of us started shooting it. About six or seven of us all made it. By the end of the night we could have pulled McGoorty's "drunken Girl Scout" off the street and had her made it.

You just have to find "the spot."

Lou Figueroa
 
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lfigueroa

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Mosconi suffered a stroke in 1958 and retired from competition upon his Dr's advice. From then on it was exhibitions only, with an occasional after hours action match. One of which I watched in August 1966 in the Florida Keys. Mosconi lost two out of three 150pt games to a local conch nobody's ever heard of. He won the first at $1 a ball, lost the next two at higher stakes and pulled up. Did NOT seem happy about it.

ETA: The local remains the best I've seen. His daily practice was to run 300 on a 10 ft table. If he missed, he started over (or so I was told--I never saw it happen).


Bullshit.

Lou Figueroa
there's a reason
you never saw it :)
 

Miller

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Yes, I can remember it as if it were yesterday (insert flashback music).

I think I got interested in pool right around 1968 or '69. A friend and I went to a bowling alley with his dad and mom one weekend and while they bowled, we discovered the pool room that was part of the bowling alley. My family lived in San Francisco, down by the Cow Palace, and bowling alleys with pool rooms in them were a pretty common setup back then, around there. In fact, just a short walk away from our house was Castle Lanes, where, very early on in life, I learned courtesy of a summer bowling league, that I had absolutely no talent for that game.

But occasionally I'd wander into the pool room there. It had perhaps nine or so old Brunswicks and I'd watch all these old guys bat the balls around. They seemed to favor some odd game where it only mattered if you made a ball in one particular pocket, or perhaps the other. I wouldn't decipher what they doing until much later on in life... Not long after my buddy and I became proud owners of our very own personal pool cues, I learned that Willie Mosconi would be making his annual appearance at Castle Lanes. This was huge. I had watched "The Hustler" several times by now and knew the lore.

So the day of the exhibition, I get out of school early and zoom down to Castle Lanes to get a front row seat. They had recovered the front table and all the old guys already had their favored perches secured. Nonetheless, I squeezed in. Then "he" walked into the pool room. Mosconi was always nattily dressed in sports coat and tie. He'd come into the room with a box of balls and a luggage-style cue case. His hair was pure white and he always had this very elegant, tailored look about him. To warm up, he'd rack all fifteen balls, separate the head ball and set up a break shot off to the left of the rack. The break shots he seemed to favor were always a little steeper than I would have thought comfortable, but they certainly didn't slow him up.

He'd run off two racks and then be done, ready to play his opponent, 150 points of 14.1. Depending on whom he was playing, he'd often kick into the back of the stack and play the head ball two rails into the side, just to give his opponent the chance at a running start. He'd always run at least a 100 and I saw him go 150 and out twice. If he had missed somewhere along the way and got out running a 50, or something like that, he'd turn to the crowd and ask, "Would you like to see a 100 ball run?" And we'd all go, "Well, yes." And he'd keep shooting and always get the 100. Then he'd shoot some trick shots, including some pretty nifty masses, and then hang around and talk and sign autographs. (It's the only autograph I have ever asked for in my life.)

Perhaps the last time I saw him was towards the late 70s, like maybe 1976, at an appearance in downtown San Francisco at a walk-up bowling alley named, appropriately enough, Downtown Bowl. He did the usual exhibition that I had seen several times before and it was still fascinating. Particularly, as I've mentioned before, because of the way his cue ball behaved. It was extraordinary how it would muscle into the balls and keep diving into them again and again until it had plowed through them all and come out the other side of the cluster or stack, totally unscathed.

So after his exhibition he's standing around, leaning against the table and talking to all the old timers and they're asking all the usual, "Did you ever play...?" "What'd you think of so and so's game?" and I'm trying to get closer to listen in on all this and I'm right by the side pocket of the table he's just finished his exhibition on and I look down and there it is.

Right there, at the bottom of the side pocket, is Mosconi's Cue Ball.

The blue circle on it is staring right back up at me and somehow, it was challenging me. Everyone is focused on Mosconi. No one is looking at me. I stare back into the abyss and realize I have but one moment to make a critical, and yes, criminal, decision. I look down into the pocket and I swear, Mosconi's Cue Ball is virtually howling with laughter at me. I quickly seize the little sucker, muffling it as best I can, stuff it into the pocket of my coat, and dash down the stairs of the establishment scared to death that if Mosconi discovers His Cue Ball is missing, they'll lock down the whole bowling alley -- and perhaps even cordon off the entire downtown district -- until they find the missing orb.

Now, some 40 years later, I still feel bad about the larceny I committed in my callow youth. But it's done and I can't undo it and so Mosconi's Cue Ball now sits, somewhat more meekly and quietly, on my bookshelf of pool books. But I think it still knows it's Mosconi's Cue Ball and now, just every once in a while when I'm sitting at the computer writing about the trials and tribulations of my pool game, I occasionally hear a tiny little giggle coming from behind my back, from somewhere on my book case.

Lou Figueroa

ha! of course i knew you had swiped masconi's cue ball, just never knew the whole story...... good stuff lou.
:D
 

gulfportdoc

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Mosconi suffered a stroke in 1958 and retired from competition upon his Dr's advice. From then on it was exhibitions only, with an occasional after hours action match. One of which I watched in August 1966 in the Florida Keys. Mosconi lost two out of three 150pt games to a local conch nobody's ever heard of. He won the first at $1 a ball, lost the next two at higher stakes and pulled up. Did NOT seem happy about it.

ETA: The local remains the best I've seen. His daily practice was to run 300 on a 10 ft table. If he missed, he started over (or so I was told--I never saw it happen).
I often wondered about the circumstances under which Mosconi retired. The Florida Keys? Wow, when I was visiting I'd wondered if there were ever a decent poolroom somewhere in the Keys. Do you recall which Key it was in?

The local player probably attempted to run 100 each day, not 300; and certainly not 300 on a 5 X 10. Crane holds the record of 309 on a 10' table-- a record that will likely never be broken.

~Doc
 

lfigueroa

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I often wondered about the circumstances under which Mosconi retired. The Florida Keys? Wow, when I was visiting I'd wondered if there were ever a decent poolroom somewhere in the Keys. Do you recall which Key it was in?

The local player probably attempted to run 100 each day, not 300; and certainly not 300 on a 5 X 10. Crane holds the record of 309 on a 10' table-- a record that will likely never be broken.

~Doc


Heres the best obit on Willie, Doc:

http://articles.philly.com/1993-09-18/news/25984648_1_pool-cue-pool-table-billiards

What is not generally known is that, towards the end, he had Alzheimers.

Lou Figueroa
 

petie

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Citrus Springs, FL
I often wondered about the circumstances under which Mosconi retired. The Florida Keys? Wow, when I was visiting I'd wondered if there were ever a decent poolroom somewhere in the Keys. Do you recall which Key it was in?

The local player probably attempted to run 100 each day, not 300; and certainly not 300 on a 5 X 10. Crane holds the record of 309 on a 10' table-- a record that will likely never be broken.

~Doc

Doc,
When my son was in High School, about 1994 or 95, we lived in Michigan. We took a vacation to Florida which included a trip to the key for snorkeling. Back then there was a pool room in Marathon. Years later still living in Michigan my wife and I took another trip which brought us to the keys. There was a pool room/video poker room and bar just on the North side of Key West. Earlier this year my buddy and I went to the keys and there is only one room in the entire keys and it is a dog. They have 2 9ft tables in a very smoky bar and these are filthy. Sad but true.
 

baby huey

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To Lou: If you ever went into Cochrans in San Francisco in the late 60's then you remember the 5X10 pool table they had up there. That table had the deadest rails and the most nappy cloth and I guarantee you that I never saw anyone break and run two racks on that table. That was with 4 7/8'" pockets. That includes the likes of Denny Searcy, Richie Florence and all the other top players in that room. So if you went to Cochrans and wanted to gamble you weren't going to run racks on that big pocket table. My point being that pocket size means nothing to playing great pool. Nowadays my customers complain if I don't change the cloth every 6 months and back then the slate had to be showing through the cloth before a room owner changed the cloth. Playing great pool is all relative to the playing conditions and the equipment.
 

Frank Almanza

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Upland, California
To Lou: If you ever went into Cochrans in San Francisco in the late 60's then you remember the 5X10 pool table they had up there. That table had the deadest rails and the most nappy cloth and I guarantee you that I never saw anyone break and run two racks on that table. That was with 4 7/8'" pockets. That includes the likes of Denny Searcy, Richie Florence and all the other top players in that room. So if you went to Cochrans and wanted to gamble you weren't going to run racks on that big pocket table. My point being that pocket size means nothing to playing great pool. Nowadays my customers complain if I don't change the cloth every 6 months and back then the slate had to be showing through the cloth before a room owner changed the cloth. Playing great pool is all relative to the playing conditions and the equipment.

Jerry, in the late sixties there was a guy that I gave the seven ball to all over town but when he talked me into playing at Cochrans on that 5x10 it turned out being an even match. I just couldn't make the adjustments. I still have nightmares about that table.
 

NJshooter

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To Lou: If you ever went into Cochrans in San Francisco in the late 60's then you remember the 5X10 pool table they had up there. That table had the deadest rails and the most nappy cloth and I guarantee you that I never saw anyone break and run two racks on that table. That was with 4 7/8'" pockets. That includes the likes of Denny Searcy, Richie Florence and all the other top players in that room. So if you went to Cochrans and wanted to gamble you weren't going to run racks on that big pocket table. My point being that pocket size means nothing to playing great pool. Nowadays my customers complain if I don't change the cloth every 6 months and back then the slate had to be showing through the cloth before a room owner changed the cloth. Playing great pool is all relative to the playing conditions and the equipment.

Very good point -- and while this statement may be blatantly obvious, it is one which I think people may tend to overlook or completely neglect in an argument such as this.

The entire discussion is contingent upon the specific situation. Pocket size can be absolutely, positively critical -- tantamount -- and be the most dominant factor...with all other things being considered. On the contrary, it may not be anywhere near the dominant factor, when all other things are being considered.

jerry -- thank you for making this point.
 

NJshooter

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Jerry, in the late sixties there was a guy that I gave the seven ball to all over town but when he talked me into playing at Cochrans on that 5x10 it turned out being an even match. I just couldn't make the adjustments. I still have nightmares about that table.

Good point. Thanks.
 
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