You make the call as a Ref

Ok, as tournament director in Memphis i was asked to make a difficult referee call. I hope i made the right call here. I'm obviously not a professional at this job so i'm asking some of our senior members who might have more experience to ease my mind. This still bothers me, but i feel i made the right call.

So here is what happened. I'm called to a table where a heated argument was taking place in the banks. Player A had just made a ball after several innings of play. I'm not sure how many innings but it was several. Player B says spot your ball, you owe one. Player A had a coin on the table. Player A insists it was from the game before when he owed a ball. He also insists player B won the earlier game with player A still owing a ball.
Player A is insisting he slept the coin from the previous game and also says player B doesn't even know how he fouled in this game, he just knows he owes a ball. I do not ask any of the spectators who were watching the match for their opinions as i feel that would be inappropriate. Keep in mind several innings had already taken place. When i ask player B he says he doesn't remember how he fouled, he just owes a ball. So i made the call the best i could. Please anybody who was there refrain from making a comment until we see some opinions.
So, as a ref how would you decide this situation?

crabbcatjohn said:

Ok, as tournament director in Memphis i was asked to make a difficult referee call. I hope i made the right call here. I'm obviously not a professional at this job so i'm asking some of our senior members who might have more experience to ease my mind. This still bothers me, but i feel i made the right call.

So here is what happened. I'm called to a table where a heated argument was taking place in the banks. Player A had just made a ball after several innings of play. I'm not sure how many innings but it was several. Player B says spot your ball, you owe one. Player A had a coin on the table. Player A insists it was from the game before when he owed a ball. He also insists player B won the earlier game with player A still owing a ball.
Player A is insisting he slept the coin from the previous game and also says player B doesn't even know how he fouled in this game, he just knows he owes a ball. I do not ask any of the spectators who were watching the match for their opinions as i feel that would be inappropriate. Keep in mind several innings had already taken place. When i ask player B he says he doesn't remember how he fouled, he just owes a ball. So i made the call the best i could. Please anybody who was there refrain from making a comment until we see some opinions.
So, as a ref how would you decide this situation?

Click to expand...

Flip the coin.

pj <- obviously not a ref
chgo

Unfortunately it is player A's responsibility to look after himself...with that being said, he owed the ball.


Player B is probably a snowflake/democrat taking advantage of the situation or...holy moly...he really thought the other guy owed one.

You make the call as a Ref

As a spectator and knowing mike, I’m sure he was right. As a ref, you did make the right call.

Please don't comment on the players names or reputations etc. None of that enters into a decision as Referee. I'm not looking to vindicate myself or give my personal opinion. Either i was right as a ref or wrong as a ref. Being around pool for as many years as I have, i have a very good idea of what happened....

Tough call. I would say that if there is a coin marking a pocket, it signifies an owed ball. If the coin has been there a number of innings ("several?") then it would be harder to say it was from the prior game -- unless both players agreed. Obviously the whole point here is that the players did not agree.

Tough call for player A if it really was from the prior game, but if player B says it was a foul/scratch from that particular game, and the coin is there -- that's two against one, sorry.

This is the kind of ruling that is not covered in rules. No ref, no rule, you are left as tournament director making a decision.

You see a similar thing with slept balls in the tray on gully tables all the time. If it is left very long in the tray it is going to end up counting for someone, and even if you are the one that made it, if several shots have gone by, it gets tougher and tougher to straighten it out, unless both players are on the same page -- which they often are not. I saw this exact scenario play out at DCC about 10 years ago between Buddy Hall and Sylver Ochoa. I think in that case a ball that Sylver probably made but slept, ended up in Buddy's side of the trays after a couple of innings. The TD was called and it was basically too late to reverse that, given the disagreement, and therefore the call went Buddy's way. What do they say? "Possession is 9/10ths of the law."

Under these circumstances I would rule that player A owes a ball!

As far as I know CSI/ BCAPL, is the only rule making body that has rules governing Bank Pool of which govern DCC 'general rules', with the DCC Administration developing some of their own game rules!

And in each instance there is no rule about placing a coin by your pocket when a ball is owed. Now as the TD you can make this a rule.

Now CSI / BCAPL does allow a referee to poll the spectators for their opinion!

It is my opinion that OnePocket.org should develop their own Bank Pool rules, for we are going to grow exponentially. This only makes sense to me!

Players proper procedure needs to be developed for Bank Pool as well as One Pocket. For instance instead of the "unwritten rule" this is what is needed to be spelled out; it is required the players keep track of the scored balls, and owed balls, and coin placement. It is not allowed for the opponent to physically contact the opponents scored balls or coins placed. The outgoing player always spots balls for the incoming player, the opponent must allow the outgoing scoring players the time to place their balls in their collective area, and to remove a coin or spot a ball, you can only take a break from play when it is your inning. This is a few examples of what is lacking in rules and thus adversely effects the game's proper etiquette! IMHO, Whitey

You can call me a snowflake if you want, but at least I am not some degenerate, White Nationalist, racist, bigot, Proud Boy. Can remember the foul? Can you remember the coin being put up? Does player “A” remember putting up the coin from before and does player “B” remember last games coin? Both players have lapsed memory and I have left coins on the table from previous games also. If you can say you have never left a coin on the table, well youre out of being able to judge the situation.
This must have bothered you more than it should Mr Crabman. Was there a stream going? Were there any impartial spectators? Did the players use the same side when posting their balls or did they rotate? The only way to make a decision based on a rule no matter how vague would be the marker or no marker that existed. We use markers as evidence of a fould to be paid. If there can be no agreement on when the marker was posted, the marker speaks for itself. Spot the ball, remember to pick up your markers.
And Crabman, let it go!

crabbcatjohn said:

So, as a ref how would you decide this situation?

Click to expand...

I don't play banks, so I'm curious. When you owe a ball playing banks, where does the penny go to signify that it is YOU who owes one?

If both players agree that the location of the penny in this case clearly says which of them owes a ball, the guy who the penny represents owes a ball. If he forgot to remove a penny from the previous game, snooze he lose.


You also could ask both players if they approve of you consulting spectators. If both agree, you've gained a step forward IMO.

LSJohn said:

I don't play banks, so I'm curious. When you owe a ball playing banks, where does the penny go to signify that it is YOU who owes one?

If both players agree that the location of the penny in this case clearly says which of them owes a ball, the guy who the penny represents owes a ball. If he forgot to remove a penny from the previous game, snooze he lose.

You also could ask both players if they approve of you consulting spectators. If both agree, you've gained a step forward IMO.

Click to expand...

You put your marker on the side where you keep your balls. I've never heard of asking the audience...lol. As it was all one sided in that corner of the room probably not a good idea.

He should have bought the socks. Sadly, Matt might be the only one who gets that, but it was hilarious to realize it was the same guy.

crabbcatjohn said:

You put your marker on the side where you keep your balls.

Click to expand...

OK, thanks.

I've never heard of asking the audience...

Click to expand...

Well, you never would unless both players agreed. Sometimes both just want whatever is right, and if so, they'd often agree to your getting more information any way you could, right?

LSJohn said:

OK, thanks.

Well, you never would unless both players agreed. Sometimes both just want whatever is right, and if so, they'd often agree to your getting more information any way you could, right?

Click to expand...

I don't believe it's ever appropriate to ask the audience. In this case I believe it could just make it worse. JMO. I did get feedback from the man who had both players in the auction after my ruling. I don't care to post his view either.

I find it strange that player b didn't have a clue how or when player a fouled that game. Couple that w/the fact that player a owed a ball after the previous game, I would simply continue play without spotting a ball.

Most tourneys play that if there is no ref, the shooter gets the call...I think player a in this case is the shooter and should get the benefit of the doubt. (unless it was John Barton - then I would make him spot 2 balls hahahaha (joke)).

Nice job running the tourney(s) John.
Dave

If you are playing by DCC rules then it is absolutely appropriate to poll the sweaters! The players have no say in this, trust me, I've studied the rules! Whitey

12squared said:

I find it strange that player b didn't have a clue how or when player a fouled that game. Couple that w/the fact that player a owed a ball after the previous game, I would simply continue play without spotting a ball.

Most tourneys play that if there is no ref, the shooter gets the call...I think player a in this case is the shooter and should get the benefit of the doubt. (unless it was John Barton - then I would make him spot 2 balls hahahaha (joke)).

Nice job running the tourney(s) John.
Dave

Click to expand...

Interesting opinion. So your saying in theory a player could scratch several innings before he makes a ball, put a coin on the rail. Then deny he scratched for any reason, refuse to spot a ball and because he is the shooter he doesn't have to spot one? lol..

Dennis "Whitey" Young said:

If you are playing by DCC rules then it is absolutely appropriate to poll the sweaters! The players have no say in this, trust me, I've studied the rules! Whitey

Click to expand...

I've never read the DCC referee guidelines. Maybe you could share? Should come in handy for our future tournaments.

crabbcatjohn said:

I've never read the DCC referee guidelines. Maybe you could share? Should come in handy for our future tournaments.

Click to expand...

They would be under BCAPL Official Rules. They have a whole section of rules devoted to Referee's.
These rules are the "general rules", and also the "game rules" of DCC, with the Administration of DCC apply their own alternative rules.

I'll find specifically where it states that the ref. can poll the sweaters with after the fact called fouls and instances like this.

I was on line live watching a Western BCA match and a referee was called over after the fact, and he polled the sweaters and came to the conclusion that in fact the player did commit a foul. It was an easy call for he did not contact a ball! But, boy did the live stream light up with comments that the ref could not do that, and boy he was getting some heat. I later told the ref about this and he laughed, and said; " I bet they did! For they did not know the referee rules".

BCAPL rules try to be thorough, but you have to search to get the complete meaning of their rules.

I found the ruling, and there maybe more on this subject. But go to pg. 72, 10-6 Soliciting Information (this is when a ref. is called to the table after the fact). Further information go to pg. 107.
1. Referees may solicit information from any source to aid them in making their decision.
2. this is lengthy so I will not write it.

This means poll spectators or view a video. Whitey

the reason he owes the ball is that since the coin was there his opponent might have played differently during the previous shots based on the false information. and then he might be penalized for the others mistake.

12squared said:

I find it strange that player b didn't have a clue how or when player a fouled that game. Couple that w/the fact that player a owed a ball after the previous game, I would simply continue play without spotting a ball.

Most tourneys play that if there is no ref, the shooter gets the call...I think player a in this case is the shooter and should get the benefit of the doubt. (unless it was John Barton - then I would make him spot 2 balls hahahaha (joke)).

Nice job running the tourney(s) John.
Dave

Click to expand...

...and this is in fact exactly the way it often works between two players -- they agree that it was most likely from the prior rack. There is nothing wrong with two players agreeing of course