palmer /efren #2

Patrick Johnson

Patrick Johnson

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I apologize for taking up so much thread real estate with the above four posts.

REALITY CHECK: Of course "paralleling" isn't an exact science (nothing is when it comes to rail shots) - it must be calibrated to your table and adjusted with angle or spin from shot to shot. That's why I don't show the arrows converging on a single point in the diagrams.

pj
chgo
 
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wincardona

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jerry matchin said:
As i said previously, Billy is a good friend of mine and we discussed this match at length. I think this match is where Efren banked the ball off the point into the jaws of his pocket (only can happen on a Diamond) and left Billy scratching his head. Anyway, when you keep putting the ball in the stack against Efren and play his ticky tack game, he is going to maneuver the balls around and put an 8 and out on you. You have to get balls onto your side of the table and leave him up table. He does not defend quite as well from up table and if you keep it up against him, it does frustrate him. When I played him, I used this strategy with some degree of success. The 10/7 game he played me took some toll of him and I was able to win some games and lesson the amount I lost. But I did lose anyway.
Click to expand...

That would work ..maybe after 2010, but before that he was still playing unbelievably in terms of executing shots that carried distance. But I agree that distance would be an ally that should be used in all close decisions when choosing options. Wow..10/7 you have to play really good..even today to beat him that way. All I can say is..good playing, in spite of his age.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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keoneyo said:
Uh what about the response Tom. How would you get out of your trap.
Click to expand...

I'll give you my take on why the intentional was a good option and also what are the escape options that may be available.

Taking the intentional was a two fold decision. One being that he had to get over his inning due to the complexity it presented.( in terms of any thing aggressive being available.) Which was evidenced by the option Palmer chose. Two being that the ending position with your option will possibly lure your opponent into making a bad decision with his return option. Like I mentioned in an earlier post that there are times when your opponent will try to execute a semi difficult shot from a seemingly tough position when he may not need to, when all he needs to do is take an intentional back. Don't forget you're on the first scratch, however, things don't always come down the way you think they should and at times you may get pleasantly surprised with your ..surprising opportunity off of a mistake in judgement by your opponent. :D

Return options would vary depending on where in the stack you're left in. In this situation you would look to see if the 13ball passes the 6ball, and if it is confirmed that the 13ball doesn't pass you would then have the top left corner available as an option with the cue ball. If it does pass then you need to look else where for an escape route. But don't forget that your opponent is on the first scratch and you shouldn't try to force a shot just to save a ball when the intentional back would be the best option. Reyes will still have the advantage..only in terms of winning the first move, because you're on the first scratch, however, the ball position still favors you and will obviously be the next battle you'll have in trying to preserve it...Great game it is..One Pocket. Interesting stuff.:D

Dr. Bill
 
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keoneyo

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wincardona said:
I'll give you my take on why the intentional was a good option and also what are the escape options that may be available.

Taking the intentional was a two fold decision. One being that he had to get over his inning due to the complexity it presented.( in terms of any thing aggressive being available.) Which was evidenced by the option Palmer chose. Two being that the ending position with your option will possibly lure your opponent into making a bad decision with his return option. Like I mentioned in an earlier post that there are times when your opponent will try to execute a semi difficult shot from a seemingly tough position when he may not need to, when all he needs to do is take an intentional back. Don't forget you're on the first scratch, however, things don't always come down the way you think they should and at times you may get pleasantly surprised with your ..surprising opportunity off of a mistake in judgement by your opponent. :D

Return options would vary depending on where in the stack you're left in. In this situation you would look to see if the 13ball passes the 6ball, and if it is confirmed that the 13ball doesn't pass you would then have the top left corner available as an option with the cue ball. If it does pass then you need to look else where for an escape route. But don't forget that your opponent is on the first scratch and you shouldn't try to force a shot just to save a ball when the intentional back would be the best option. Reyes will still have the advantage..only in terms of winning the first move, because you're on the first scratch, however, the ball position still favors you and will obviously be the next battle you'll have in trying to preserve it...Great game it is..One Pocket. Interesting stuff.:D

Dr. Bill
Click to expand...

Thanks for your response Doc, I was getting a headache with all those diagrams. Here was my response;

Well in this instance I would take heed of Eddie Taylor's admonition to look for something simple. I probably would take a scratch under the 9 ball near the rail. Trying to nestle on the first diamond near my pocket preventing my opponent from seeing the red ball.
Or if Im stuck deeper into the stack and cant see the long rail going south I would one rail kick to the top of the rail on my opponents side near the pocket hopefully doubling him up on the 2 balls on the rail. And if I dont double him up at least leave him a long shot with CB on the rail and scream,
"SHOOT MOFO"!!!!!


How do you feel about taking a scratch off the long rail and underneath the 9 ball. On the first diamond on the bottom rail blocking the view of the red ball.
 
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straightback

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wincardona said:
I'll give you my take on why the intentional was a good option and also what are the escape options that may be available.

Taking the intentional was a two fold decision. One being that he had to get over his inning due to the complexity it presented.( in terms of any thing aggressive being available.) Which was evidenced by the option Palmer chose. Two being that the ending position with your option will possibly lure your opponent into making a bad decision with his return option. Like I mentioned in an earlier post that there are times when your opponent will try to execute a semi difficult shot from a seemingly tough position when he may not need to, when all he needs to do is take an intentional back. Don't forget you're on the first scratch, however, things don't always come down the way you think they should and at times you may get pleasantly surprised with your ..surprising opportunity off of a mistake in judgement by your opponent. :D

Return options would vary depending on where in the stack you're left in. In this situation you would look to see if the 13ball passes the 6ball, and if it is confirmed that the 13ball doesn't pass you would then have the top left corner available as an option with the cue ball. If it does pass then you need to look else where for an escape route. But don't forget that your opponent is on the first scratch and you shouldn't try to force a shot just to save a ball when the intentional back would be the best option. Reyes will still have the advantage..only in terms of winning the first move, because you're on the first scratch, however, the ball position still favors you and will obviously be the next battle you'll have in trying to preserve it...Great game it is..One Pocket. Interesting stuff.:D

Dr. Bill
Click to expand...

Bill, are you aware if Efren played that bank off the point? Have you seen him play that before in tournament play or in action? I can almost see it now - I think it was a TV 12 ball.
 
androd

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straightback said:
Bill, are you aware if Efren played that bank off the point? Have you seen him play that before in tournament play or in action? I can almost see it now - I think it was a TV 12 ball.
Click to expand...

I'm not Bill, but he shoots that shot as do I and many others. there's a formula for it and it will go on gold crown tables. :)
Rod.
P.S. Hopefully the Good Doctor will chime in.
 
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straightback

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androd said:
I'm not Bill, but he shoots that shot as do I and many others. there's a formula for it and it will go on gold crown tables. :)
Rod.
P.S. Hopefully the Good Doctor will chime in.
Click to expand...

You can shoot that shot on me any day of the week, along with all those other cooky banks that shoot off the "round" of the cushion, as Beard used to say.
 
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keoneyo said:
Thanks for your response Doc, I was getting a headache with all those diagrams. Here was my response;

Well in this instance I would take heed of Eddie Taylor's admonition to look for something simple. I probably would take a scratch under the 9 ball near the rail. Trying to nestle on the first diamond near my pocket preventing my opponent from seeing the red ball.
Or if Im stuck deeper into the stack and cant see the long rail going south I would one rail kick to the top of the rail on my opponents side near the pocket hopefully doubling him up on the 2 balls on the rail. And if I dont double him up at least leave him a long shot with CB on the rail and scream,
"SHOOT MOFO"!!!!!


How do you feel about taking a scratch off the long rail and underneath the 9 ball. On the first diamond on the bottom rail blocking the view of the red ball.
Click to expand...
Yes I agree with both your options, like I mentioned earlier..look to see if the 13ball passes the 6ball if not then you have that end of the table to position the cue ball. If by chance you leave a shot on the 6ball..no biggie.. it's a long semi tough shot that doesn't carry position and one your opponent
will be reluctant to shoot, for obvious reasons.

In regard to taking an intentional under the 9ball, imo that would be a very viable option but you may be left in a spot that you can play off of a ball and execute your shot with out having to take an intentional. In either case under the 9ball would be a good place to put your opponent.

In this particular situation Billy should be concerned with preserving his position, and Reyes should be concerned with breaking it down. There really isn't any immediate danger for Reyes unless he plays stupidly off of the intentional that we are discussing.

I believe that the player playing off the intentional(Reyes) is the favorite to win the battle of his goal in breaking down Palmer's advantage, providing he doesn't do any thing stupid. Hower, this should be the course both players should consider from the initial position..starting with Palmer's intentional. Of course Palmer didn't start with the intentional and because of that he gifted Reyes an easy escape to start the breaking down process.

Dr. Bill
 
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wincardona

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androd said:
I'm not Bill, but he shoots that shot as do I and many others. there's a formula for it and it will go on gold crown tables. :)
Rod.
P.S. Hopefully the Good Doctor will chime in.
Click to expand...
Yes Rod, that's a very nifty shot that is clearly an advantage to know and ..recognize when it's available. Of course you're not the favorite to pocket it but you certainly have the advantage when it presents itself (which isn't that often, but often enough) to position a ball either in or near your pocket and at the same time controlling the cue ball.

I would be interested in knowing the system you referred to knowing, very curious.

If you don't mind.:heh:D

Dr. Bill
 
Tom Wirth

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Ordinarily I would like the shot suggested and lag to the top rail doubling up the two balls along the side rail. This in reply to the intentional foul by Billy. In this case however I would be concerned with the one/eight combination and refrain from leaving the cue ball in that location. If that combo can be hit in such a manner as to pocket the eight and run the cue ball through to the other side for position, then obviously an alternative must be found.

Photo images can be deceiving and the shot may not be there, but from this view the shot looks juicy. I'm going to look beyond that lag shot and search for something which will not tempt my opponent into a shot which could potentially cost me the game.

Tom
 

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androd

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wincardona said:
Yes Rod, that's a very nifty shot that is clearly an advantage to know and ..recognize when it's available. Of course you're not the favorite to pocket it but you certainly have the advantage when it presents itself (which isn't that often, but often enough) to position a ball either in or near your pocket and at the same time controlling the cue ball.

I would be interested in knowing the system you referred to knowing, very curious.

If you don't mind.:heh:D

Dr. Bill
Click to expand...

If CB ball and OB are on the rail, Aim the CB at the top point of your opponents pocket. (where the rail bevels into the pocket) A taste of outside English works well for me. As you say the position of the balls and stack are important for a safety. The ball always comes across. :)
Rod
P.S. Adjust target for your stroke.
 
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wincardona said:
Yes Rod, that's a very nifty shot that is clearly an advantage to know and ..recognize when it's available. Of course you're not the favorite to pocket it but you certainly have the advantage when it presents itself (which isn't that often, but often enough) to position a ball either in or near your pocket and at the same time controlling the cue ball.

I would be interested in knowing the system you referred to knowing, very curious.

If you don't mind.:heh:D

Dr. Bill
Click to expand...

I heard Grady on an old VHS AccuStats about shooting hard into your opponents hole on a tight pocket and the ball will go towards yours as it rejects it.
Ive tried it and found that it must go point, point, point and out. So you must be facing the point (opponents hole) from your hole to execute it. Sorry I cant explain it better. But as Grady used to say, bless his soul, "Its a shot fraught with peril".
 
Tom Wirth

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keoneyo said:
I heard Grady on an old VHS AccuStats about shooting hard into your opponents hole on a tight pocket and the ball will go towards yours as it rejects it.
Ive tried it and found that it must go point, point, point and out. So you must be facing the point (opponents hole) from your hole to execute it. Sorry I cant explain it better. But as Grady used to say, bless his soul, "Its a shot fraught with peril".
Click to expand...

Keoneyo, That shot works far better on GCs but still very unpredictable. Diamond tables due to the cut of the pocket seem to have far different reactions to such shots.

Tom
 
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Taking the intentional

Taking the intentional

Dr Bill. You mentioned about not doing something stupid. Why, do you think, people refuse to take the intentional? I find that many one pocket players who have been playing for a while and have great results on a club player level who just cant take a scratch.
I keep advising them and even show them Efren taking 2 or 3 scratches in a row (non tournament game) but they bull headedly refuse to take one. They just cant bring themselves to it. They still see it as a sign of weakness.
This can be irritating in a partners game. As they refuse to do it and show displeasure when you do.
 
androd

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keoneyo said:
I heard Grady on an old VHS AccuStats about shooting hard into your opponents hole on a tight pocket and the ball will go towards yours as it rejects it.
Ive tried it and found that it must go point, point, point and out. So you must be facing the point (opponents hole) from your hole to execute it. Sorry I cant explain it better. But as Grady used to say, bless his soul, "Its a shot fraught with peril".
Click to expand...

Yes on certain tables fairly tight tables it works well. Outside draw and a tight grip. Grady and I shot this at each other. Occasionally the OB goes into the pocket you're shooting toward. "Its a shot fraught with peril".
Rod.
 
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