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  #41  
Old 10-08-2014, 11:50 PM
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Originally Posted by gulfportdoc View Post

When you aim at the gutter in front of the rail, are you referring to where the rail meets the table bed?
I mean the worn track parallel to the nose of the rail a little less than half a ball out from it (made by balls being forced down as they rebound), where the center of the ball changes direction. It's a conveniently visible spot (unless the cloth is new) to visualize as the apex of the ideal equal-angle rebound.

If you want to get real precise, remember that the ball compresses the cushion and slides/rolls along it a short distance while it's rebounding, "rounding off" the point of that ideal equal angle. So the actual apex of the equal angle is closer to the cushion nose itself.

Of course, this is all about using ideal equal angles as references because they can be quickly and objectively measured - balls rarely follow the equal angle path exactly.

pj
chgo
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  #42  
Old 10-12-2014, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by petie View Post
pj, Three things. 1. We are talking about hitting the cue ball with draw and this having an effect on the path of a banked object ball.
2. Your stroke makes a difference. There are strokes and there are strokes. You need a stroke to show any truth here.
3. Momentary is enough. Like a soft masse, momentary English taking can change the path of the ball.
"Momentary is enough". Wise words if you ask me. John B.
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  #43  
Old 10-12-2014, 11:28 AM
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Doesn't matter if it's close to the rail or out in the middle of the table. John B.
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  #44  
Old 10-12-2014, 01:36 PM
petie petie is offline
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If 'roll' or English induced by the ball rolling on the cloth nullified English, it would, it seems, nullify left or right English as well. It doesn't seem to though. Shoot a long hold-up bank and you can see that there is plenty of hold-up English to shorten the angle of the bank quite a bit even after the ball has traveled the length of the table to get to the rail.
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  #45  
Old 10-12-2014, 03:23 PM
straightback straightback is offline
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Doesn't matter if it's close to the rail or out in the middle of the table. John B.
It certainly does for banks hit with a slower pace. For banks played at typical bank pool cinch speed, it does not.

Last edited by straightback; 10-12-2014 at 03:29 PM.
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  #46  
Old 10-12-2014, 03:43 PM
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Originally Posted by petie View Post
If 'roll' or English induced by the ball rolling on the cloth nullified English, it would, it seems, nullify left or right English as well. It doesn't seem to though. Shoot a long hold-up bank and you can see that there is plenty of hold-up English to shorten the angle of the bank quite a bit even after the ball has traveled the length of the table to get to the rail.
Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.

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John Brumback:
Doesn't matter if it's close to the rail or out in the middle of the table.
straightback:
It certainly does for banks hit with a slower pace. For banks played at typical bank pool cinch speed, it does not.
Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
chgo
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  #47  
Old 10-12-2014, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.


Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
chgo
Just curious PJ,do you gamble? I might be up that way pretty soon and was just wondering how you and I could play some banks? I would like to show you up close what I can do to those balls.Nothin big,maybe a dime a set? Thanks buddy,John B.
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  #48  
Old 10-12-2014, 11:26 PM
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
Just curious PJ,do you gamble? I might be up that way pretty soon and was just wondering how you and I could play some banks? I would like to show you up close what I can do to those balls.Nothin big,maybe a dime a set? Thanks buddy,John B.
You say the time and place and I'm there, but not to gamble with you. I've seen your game (even bought your DVD as soon as it came out), and I'd love to play you for the experience and the fun - but I don't have any financial suicide in me.

pj
chgo
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  #49  
Old 10-13-2014, 12:29 AM
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Originally Posted by John Brumback View Post
I agree with all of this also. I try to be very careful about what I tell people about pool and banking. You would never hear me say that you have to shoot hard to shorten or hold a bank shot. That's just another old myth On top of that...if you shoot too hard ( with low) the oball will bounce and go even longer I try not to get into the science part of a pool shot but I do feel that I know what works good and what doesn't. I can show better than I can tell is what I'm saying John B.
I know I learn a lot easier from someone that can show rather than tell. I want some lessons with you JB. Wanted some with Freddie too but waited too long. Want to sit with Mr D and talk about the old fight game, if he makes it. We getting old folks. Got to start doing things I want to do before I can't do them anymore. I may not learn a damn thing but we will have fun. Later, Pel

Oh, if you want a stakehorse John, give me a call. We can discuss an investment option plan that will satisfy both of our retirement objectives - I believe those objectives are booze and women

The Pelican School of Financial happiness.
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Last edited by Pelican; 10-13-2014 at 12:38 AM.
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  #50  
Old 10-13-2014, 10:02 AM
petie petie is offline
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Originally Posted by Patrick Johnson View Post
Rolling follow doesn't nullify follow English, it's the same thing. That's the point - by adding follow English you're just trying to do "manually" what will occur naturally anyway (assuming the OB would be rolling anyway when it hits the rail). Transferred follow on the OB can never be more than "natural rolling" follow, so if the OB would be rolling anyway you're wasting your effort. This is why transferred follow only matters when the OB is close to the rail where it wouldn't have time to gain much or any forward roll.


Sorry John, but straightback is right. If the OB would otherwise be rolling when it hits the rail, then the shot will turn out the same with or without transferred follow.

I think bankers are more likely to miss this distinction because they tend to hit their shots at higher speeds than in other games (like straightback says above). This means the CB doesn't get rolling as often, so transferred follow can have an effect.

Why do bankers hit their shots harder? For the same reason, but in reverse: to eliminate variables like whether or not the CB is rolling when it hits the rail. They (mostly) won't say it's for that specific reason, because they (mostly) don't know what's happening at that level of detail - they just know "if I do this, that happens".

pj
chgo
PJ,
My recent comments were about left or right English.
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