Stakehorses

I've wanted to get this started for a long time. I want to know about the guys who provide the money for a lot of the gambling on pool. How many of them expect to show a profit in this way, and how many just love the action and can afford to book it? How many, if any, actually do make a profit in the long run? They can lose the whole bet, but can only win half of it, or whatever their agreement with the player might be. On the road, they have to pay the expenses before the split. I'm curious about these guys, who are not nearly so active in other sports.

And the players - lots of them claim (after the fact) that they always bet their own money, and I'm not here to call anyone a liar about that, but so many pool tales are about major-money matches involving stakehorses.

How many players, well-known or otherwise, have gotten along in this world primarily on the money from matches where they were staked? How common has it been for 'business' to be done in matches?

Any input on this subject is welcome, with or without names. Not looking for confessions.

caballos

caballos

vapros said:

They can lose the whole bet, but can only win half of it,

On the road, they have to pay the expenses before the split.
Any input on this subject is welcome, with or without names. Not looking for confessions.

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Vapros, "They can lose the whole bet, but can only win half of it."(thats only the first game.)

"On the road, they have to pay the expenses before the split." ( expenses would come of the top,when you get home, before you split the winnings.)

On the road the player and the horse are partners, if they lose today they try to make it back tomorrow.

When you stake someone at home, if you lose today, the player may get a new horse tomorrow, so he'll be in for half if he wins. Not all of them, but I've seen it happen.
Rod.
PS; If you don't win the stakehorse pays the freight.

stuck up

stuck up

I'm a little curious on something on backers/stakehorses.

Now if your a known stakehorse, then everyone in the pool room knows your holding some serious cash. Whereas the other player may need to round up his end of the bet, the stakehorse is holding all the bet and who knows how many barrels.

With all that being the case, any stories about the backer getting stuck up? Now I know this may come as a surprise, but I'm willing to bet that everyone in a poolroom aren't the most honest of people I'm thinking there might be someone that puts the word out that there's some serious cash and who's got it and someone is waiting for them after they leave... follow them somewhere and stick em up. In this day and age, with drugs being the kind that can make people do some pretty crazy shit, do you think it's more dangerous now or was it more dangerous in earlier times due to it being more underground.

I don't know... I think sometimes if I won the lottery, I'd want to go around and drum up some real action, but I don't know if I would want to always walk around being paranoid of everyone and everything.

Thoughts, Stories?

vapros said:

I've wanted to get this started for a long time. I want to know about the guys who provide the money for a lot of the gambling on pool. How many of them expect to show a profit in this way, and how many just love the action and can afford to book it? How many, if any, actually do make a profit in the long run? They can lose the whole bet, but can only win half of it, or whatever their agreement with the player might be. On the road, they have to pay the expenses before the split. I'm curious about these guys, who are not nearly so active in other sports.

And the players - lots of them claim (after the fact) that they always bet their own money, and I'm not here to call anyone a liar about that, but so many pool tales are about major-money matches involving stakehorses.

How many players, well-known or otherwise, have gotten along in this world primarily on the money from matches where they were staked? How common has it been for 'business' to be done in matches?

Any input on this subject is welcome, with or without names. Not looking for confessions.

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Vapros

You are old enough to remember the first high $$$ stakehorse...it was when the Queen of Spain (Isabella I think) staked old Chris, to three little ships and enough provisions, to sail off to the new world. (or off the edge of the world, they weren't real sure back then)

Pool players have taken the art of "stakehorse-ism", way beyond its infantile beginnings.

Stakehorse's, as you said, come from ALL walks of life, and ALL sizes of bankroll. Some are smart gambler's, some are not...but ALL are pool degenerates.

Getting a pool player to admit to ever "dumping" a stakehorse....well... it would be a lot easier to get Bill Clinton to admit "Ever having had sex with that women".

I won't regale you with the many props, (usually by phone) I have gotten from "a lot" of guys in the racket. High $$$ action brings out the worst in a lot of broke people.

I always had a standard answer for them..."I don't PITCH, and I don't CATCH"....Which did not endear me to a lot of guy's wanting to unload a fat "Horse". Believe it or not, it has always stood me in good stead, and its a good feeling NOT to have to look over your shoulder.

Almost every big $$$ loss in a poolroom (with a "horse" involved) will always get the railbug's winking at each other.
I have endured my share of that, as I almost always had tough action...and did not always win.

Dick <--- May have found a new thing to bet on, with the "Axis of Evil"

SJDinPHX said:

Dick <--- May have found a new thing to bet on, with the "Axis of Evil"

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DICK, There you go peddling the nuts again. Freddie's already bragged about how he and Artie stole from each other.

The Chicago way

The Chicago way

androd said:

DICK, There you go peddling the nuts again. Freddie's already bragged about how he and Artie stole from each other.

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The Chicago Way pal, take a little something, leave a little something. The rest of the country could learn a valuble lesson. 40 years later AB and I are still close. Had that same kind of understanding with CornBread, Det. Whitey, Sugar Shack, Jimmy Reid, Ronnie Sypher, all of us still friends for life. The philosophy was, "he who does the countin' does most of the keepin'."

the Beard

fred bentivegna said:

The Chicago Way pal, take a little something, leave a little something. The rest of the country could learn a valuble lesson. 40 years later AB and I are still close. Had that same kind of understanding with CornBread, Det. Whitey, Sugar Shack, Jimmy Reid, Ronnie Sypher, all of us still friends for life. The philosophy was, "he who does the countin' does most of the keepin'."

the Beard

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Fred, As long as you'uns had an understanding, I'm good with it.
Rod.

androd said:

Fred, As long as you'uns had an understanding, I'm good with it.
Rod.

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Rod, I believe "Youse guy's" would be replaced by "you'uns" in proper "Yankee" lingo.
If "doze/dem guy's" (Brooklynese) used to rob from there "own kin" , where would "y'all" (normal talk) put an unsuspecting, straight dude, with "disposable" cash, when caught in their "mangy, rotten, pole-cat" midst ?

Wouldn't y'all think he'd be in for a lil' ol' fashioned "Katy bar the door" type "skinnin" ?

Dick <--- still speaks a mix of "coon-ass" and "Tex-Mex", to this day.... I jes' cain't seem ta shake it.

SJDinPHX said:

Rod, I believe "Youse guy's" would be replaced by "you'uns" in proper "Yankee" lingo.
If "doze/dem guy's" (Brooklynese) used to rob from there "own kin" , where would "y'all" (normal talk) put an unsuspecting, straight dude, with "disposable" cash, when caught in their "mangy, rotten, pole-cat" midst ?

Wouldn't y'all think he'd be in for a lil' ol' fashioned "Katy bar the door" type "skinnin" ?

Dick <--- still speaks a mix of "coon-ass" and "Tex-Mex", to this day.... I jes' cain't seem ta shake it.

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Dick, so many hillbillys from Kentucky/Tennessee went to Chicago, I figured they were familiar with you'uns. BTW thats what they call them there "hillbillies".
Rod <--- once asked if any of y'all play 9 ball while in Ky. killed my action.

androd said:

Dick, so many hillbillys from Kentucky/Tennessee went to Chicago, I figured they were familiar with you'uns. BTW thats what they call them there "hillbillies".
Rod <--- once asked if any of y'all play 9 ball while in Ky. killed my action.

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I knew that Rod. Do you s'pose thats why the "perfect, mistake-free" Chi-crowd stayed in that stinkin' smelly dungeon.....because they prefered robbing the poor "hillbillies", to going where they could win some REAL $$$$ in Texas, and the deep south ? I guess we'll never know for sure...

Dick <---Is glad he went where..."Men are men, and the women are Damn glad of it" ! (not that theres antything wrong with going the OTHER way)

A few players I have staked include: Jimmy Reid, Ronnie Allen, Keith McCready, Louie Roberts, Danny Medina, Bob Hunter, Chris MacDonald, Youngblood, John Schmidt, Jose Parica, Cliff Joyner, Mark Tadd, Piggy Banks, Tang Hoa and Mike Dechaine. I've been in with many others including Shane Van Boening and Johnny Archer most recently.

The amazing thing is that I have a winning record with this crew and actually came out ahead a few dollars.

Glad to hear it. I doubt there are many stakehorses who can say the same. Now - how much of the experience to which you refer was really tough action, and how much was just making a harvest? And are you there mainly for the money or for the action?

I would expect that to be successful, the horse would have to try to avoid too many even games. True?

Thanks -

vapros said:

Glad to hear it. I doubt there are many stakehorses who can say the same. Now - how much of the experience to which you refer was really tough action, and how much was just making a harvest? And are you there mainly for the money or for the action?

I would expect that to be successful, the horse would have to try to avoid too many even games. True?

Thanks -

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Vapros,

I think I may be able to answer that question, not for Jay, but as a fly on the wall, in many different pool rooms.

I see 4 or 5 names in Jay's original line-up, (that I think "Toupee" himself would be the first to admit) who were not the greatest caretaker's of other peoples money...or even their mothers, for that matter.

Stakehorse money, (to some of those guys....not all) was considered very disposable, and in some cases...even "fair game".
Many would use their own money, (if they had any) for soft action, and would only allow someone to stake them when they were trying to outrun the "nuts".

Only Jay's pool smarts, and maybe a little luck, kept him from being a potential casualty in any given spot, with some of those guy's.

I would also say, that the only way he made a profit, was his God-given ability to say the words..."NO, I don't think you have the nuts"... or "NO, I don't like your game with so and so.

Staking top players, in tournaments, is obviously much less risky, but not without risk, as the following story will attest to.

I will not name this gentleman, but let me just say he was at the top of the class in 1P... For the Cash or in tourneys, from about the 70's thru the 90's

This guy managed to con no less than 4 local "horses" to sponsor him, in a high $$$ 1P tournament, (all expenses paid ) for a 50% split. They each thought they were the ONLY backer.

So our hero heads cross-country, with 4 large entry fees, and a bunch of expense $$$$.... None of the horses went along.

Had he not cashed, he would have been about 2 or 3K ahead, with minimal repercussions when he returned home.

But, and this is a TRUE story...our hero WON the Goddamn tournament !!!

I was not privy to how this all played out, but I do know he did not return home, and relocated to the left coast for some years afterward.

One of these days, I may be able to fill in the blanks, but I only told this story to illustrate how a lot of pool players, from that era operated.....And he was considered one of the more HONORABLE ones !!!

Dick, the longer I hang around this site and the veteran traveling pool players here, the more I am amazed about the pool world. I know the tales I see here are either true, or at least more than possibly true, but I keep getting the impression that they were also typical to some degree during the certain period involved.

I know a tale very similar to the one you just told, but it was in the bowling area, and concerned the very biggest bowling event (except for the annual ABC tourney), at the Peterson Classic at the old Archer Street Recreation in Cicero, Illinois. (Wasn't it in Cicero, Fred?) Anyway, my point is that it was certainly not as common among bowlers as it seems to have been among pool people. In your story, I saw the phrase 'minimal repercussions', and that sort of defined the scene for me. Realizing those backers were aware that they might be robbed from the beginning. Maybe robbed before? Maybe robbed on several occasions? What the hell!?

This is fascinating stuff, but sort of appalling, too. So now I would like to know if all this was unique to a certain time period, like from - to - , or has it always been that way? Was it different before you guys, and different after your day? And what does it tell us about the game, and the people in it, when great play and exciting matches might not be the headline for the night?

Helluva collection of tales here, waiting to be done if we don't wait too long, but how many of you would want to see them told? Anybody who wants to is welcome to respond.

vapros said:

Dick, the longer I hang around this site and the veteran traveling pool players here, the more I am amazed about the pool world. I know the tales I see here are either true, or at least more than possibly true, but I keep getting the impression that they were also typical to some degree during the certain period involved.

I know a tale very similar to the one you just told, but it was in the bowling area, and concerned the very biggest bowling event (except for the annual ABC tourney), at the Peterson Classic at the old Archer Street Recreation in Cicero, Illinois. (Wasn't it in Cicero, Fred?) Anyway, my point is that it was certainly not as common among bowlers as it seems to have been among pool people. In your story, I saw the phrase 'minimal repercussions', and that sort of defined the scene for me. Realizing those backers were aware that they might be robbed from the beginning. Maybe robbed before? Maybe robbed on several occasions? What the hell!?

This is fascinating stuff, but sort of appalling, too. So now I would like to know if all this was unique to a certain time period, like from - to - , or has it always been that way? Was it different before you guys, and different after your day? And what does it tell us about the game, and the people in it, when great play and exciting matches might not be the headline for the night?

Helluva collection of tales here, waiting to be done if we don't wait too long, but how many of you would want to see them told? Anybody who wants to is welcome to respond.

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BACKERS WANTED NO EXPERENCE NESSASERY.

vapros said:

Dick, the longer I hang around this site and the veteran traveling pool players here, the more I am amazed about the pool world. I know the tales I see here are either true, or at least more than possibly true, but I keep getting the impression that they were also typical to some degree during the certain period involved.

I know a tale very similar to the one you just told, but it was in the bowling area, and concerned the very biggest bowling event (except for the annual ABC tourney), at the Peterson Classic at the old Archer Street Recreation in Cicero, Illinois. (Wasn't it in Cicero, Fred?) Anyway, my point is that it was certainly not as common among bowlers as it seems to have been among pool people. In your story, I saw the phrase 'minimal repercussions', and that sort of defined the scene for me. Realizing those backers were aware that they might be robbed from the beginning. Maybe robbed before? Maybe robbed on several occasions? What the hell!?

This is fascinating stuff, but sort of appalling, too. So now I would like to know if all this was unique to a certain time period, like from - to - , or has it always been that way? Was it different before you guys, and different after your day? And what does it tell us about the game, and the people in it, when great play and exciting matches might not be the headline for the night?

Helluva collection of tales here, waiting to be done if we don't wait too long, but how many of you would want to see them told? Anybody who wants to is welcome to respond.

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Vapros, I don't think I could put a time frame on it. "Funny bizness" has been around for a long time, and I'm sure its still alive and well today in a lot of places. It may be the second oldest profession for that matter.

Pool and Jai Alai seem to have had a corner on the "biz" market, simply because horses and dogs can't talk to each other. But, many sports as you know, have uncovered some pretty juicey scandals.

There were many ethical, stand-up guys in the pool era I grew up in. But from my observations, sad to say...they were in the minority.

Also, that old addage "Honor among Thieves", I'm quite sure, was coined by a guy who was never a thief !

In Chicago

In Chicago

vapros said:

Dick, the longer I hang around this site and the veteran traveling pool players here, the more I am amazed about the pool world. I know the tales I see here are either true, or at least more than possibly true, but I keep getting the impression that they were also typical to some degree during the certain period involved.

I know a tale very similar to the one you just told, but it was in the bowling area, and concerned the very biggest bowling event (except for the annual ABC tourney), at the Peterson Classic at the old Archer Street Recreation in Cicero, Illinois. (Wasn't it in Cicero, Fred?) Anyway, my point is that it was certainly not as common among bowlers as it seems to have been among pool people. In your story, I saw the phrase 'minimal repercussions', and that sort of defined the scene for me. Realizing those backers were aware that they might be robbed from the beginning. Maybe robbed before? Maybe robbed on several occasions? What the hell!?

This is fascinating stuff, but sort of appalling, too. So now I would like to know if all this was unique to a certain time period, like from - to - , or has it always been that way? Was it different before you guys, and different after your day? And what does it tell us about the game, and the people in it, when great play and exciting matches might not be the headline for the night?

Helluva collection of tales here, waiting to be done if we don't wait too long, but how many of you would want to see them told? Anybody who wants to is welcome to respond.

Click to expand...

I have forgotten the name of the famous bowling alley, home of the Peterson Classic, the most famous bowling event at that time. But I do know the joint it was on Archer Ave about 2000 West. 4 miles out of Cicero (4800 West)

the Beard

fred bentivegna said:

I have forgotten the name of the famous bowling alley, home of the Peterson Classic, the most famous bowling event at that time. But I do know the joint it was on Archer Ave about 2000 West. 4 miles out of Cicero (4800 West)

the Beard

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I think thats were my runner quick rick hung out. race track phil would know. Thier was some good bowling action. Quick rick was a real classy guy. And he gambled and backed bowlers and pool players. He use to back the rocket man.

Fred, I'm thinking it was a unique place, in that nothing happened there, except for the Peterson, and that was a strange event, indeed. Terrible bowling conditions, done on purpose, and lots of lousy scores, but a huge prize list. The tournament runs from about March into July - or it did fifty years ago - and I believe the joint was closed the rest of the year. No league play at all, and one spectator allowed in with each bowler. Full tournament squads all day seven days a week for the full run of the event. One had to file his entry a year in advance to get in.

It was held upstairs in a building condemned by the fire marshal, no smoking allowed. Unless my memory has failed me, nobody could hang out at the Archer Street Recreation. I don't keep up with bowling any more, but I think the Peterson is still held, but I don't know where.

vapros said:

Fred, I'm thinking it was a unique place, in that nothing happened there, except for the Peterson, and that was a strange event, indeed. Terrible bowling conditions, done on purpose, and lots of lousy scores, but a huge prize list. The tournament runs from about March into July - or it did fifty years ago - and I believe the joint was closed the rest of the year. No league play at all, and one spectator allowed in with each bowler. Full tournament squads all day seven days a week for the full run of the event. One had to file his entry a year in advance to get in.

It was held upstairs in a building condemned by the fire marshal, no smoking allowed. Unless my memory has failed me, nobody could hang out at the Archer Street Recreation. I don't keep up with bowling any more, but I think the Peterson is still held, but I don't know where.

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Vapros,

Would "terrible bowling conditions, done on purpose" possibly have anything to do with similar conditions with pool at Bensinger's ???

It may be just the Chicago way of doing things. I don't know...Just a thought.