Legal shot or foul?

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ONEPOCKETFISH

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DURING A ONE-POCKET GAME AN OCCASION AROSE WHERE I ELECTED TO MAKE MY SHOT IN AN UNUSUAL MANNER. I RESTED THE CUE-TIP ON THE TABLE, DIRECTLY BEHIND THE CUE-BALL AND MORE OR LESS "JUST SHOVED" THE CUE-BALL FORWARD. THE TIP WAS ABSOLUTELY ON THE BED WHEN IT STRUCK THE CUE-BALL. A CONTROVERSY AROSE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT METHOD IS ALLOWED. ANY THOUGHTS OR OPINIONS AS TO THE LEGALITY OF THAT METHOD WOULD BE APPRECIATED. Jerry F.
 
Cowboy Dennis

Cowboy Dennis

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ONEPOCKETFISH said:
DURING A ONE-POCKET GAME AN OCCASION AROSE WHERE I ELECTED TO MAKE MY SHOT IN AN UNUSUAL MANNER. I RESTED THE CUE-TIP ON THE TABLE, DIRECTLY BEHIND THE CUE-BALL AND MORE OR LESS "JUST SHOVED" THE CUE-BALL FORWARD. THE TIP WAS ABSOLUTELY ON THE BED WHEN IT STRUCK THE CUE-BALL. A CONTROVERSY AROSE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT THAT METHOD IS ALLOWED. ANY THOUGHTS OR OPINIONS AS TO THE LEGALITY OF THAT METHOD WOULD BE APPRECIATED. Jerry F.
Click to expand...

The way you describe the shot sounds legal to me. Nothing wrong with the tip being on the table when it contacts the cueball.

Please turn your caps off if you don't mind.

Dennis
 
L

lll

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i do not know the correct answer
i always thought if you hit the bed of the table first with force then the cue ball and the cue ball left(jumped up) the bed of the table thats a foul
the stroke you described i think would cause the cue ball to jump even if hit softly since you by your admission the cue tip was on the bed of the table on contact with the cueball
could be a foul......:confused:
i found this in the WPA rules after i wrote the above paragraph
doesnt really help because it doesnt say a miscue is a foul
although i always thought the "scoop"shot was a foul
i also always thought if you miscued but the cue managed to hit a ball and something hit a rail or the object ball went in it wasnt a foul
icbw
18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. A scoop shot, in which the cue tip contacts the playing surface and the cue ball at the same time and this causes the cue ball to rise off the cloth, is treated like a miscue. Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
 
NH Steve

NH Steve

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Elsewhere in the general pool rules I believe it describes that your pool shot stroke has to be one contact with the cue ball, and cannot push (maintaining a lingering contact). As lll posted, you also cannot use a scoop under stroke to jump the cue ball at all. So if you were to ask me, it depends on the sort of stroke -- i.e., a double hit would be a foul, a push would be a foul and any sort of jump at all would be a foul. But if it was a clean stroke and contact without those issues, and it was with the tip of the cue (another rule), then it sounds legal to me.

But I am very curious why you would use it -- I mean by that, what situation would arise where you would consider that sort of stroke to be your best bet to control the shot? A very light nudge? I can see that, especially for those of us getting older and having a harder time holding delicate shots steady -- resting the cue on the bed of the table would help steady it, maybe?
 
O

ONEPOCKETFISH

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More data concerning legal shot or foul

More data concerning legal shot or foul

Sorry.caps are now off. Thanks to all who have made replies.
By way of further explanation as to the particulars of the shot in question, I will explain it this way.....my cue-ball was 1/4 inch away from the object ball which was also 1/4 inch away from the rail. my goal was just to move the object ball to the rail in order to avoid a scratch. In addition, the game i was involved in required me to shoot with only one hand. I chose the method of resting the cue tip on the bed directly behind the cue ball and just nudging the cue-ball forward thereby moving the object ball to the rail. At this point, my opponent called this an illegal shot on the basis that I am not allowed to strike the cue-ball while the cue-tip is on the table bed.
Please contribute your viewpoint if you will.
thankyou, Jerry F.....Upstate New York(Endicott)
 
Island Drive

Island Drive

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ONEPOCKETFISH said:
Sorry.caps are now off. Thanks to all who have made replies.
By way of further explanation as to the particulars of the shot in question, I will explain it this way.....my cue-ball was 1/4 inch away from the object ball which was also 1/4 inch away from the rail. my goal was just to move the object ball to the rail in order to avoid a scratch. In addition, the game i was involved in required me to shoot with only one hand. I chose the method of resting the cue tip on the bed directly behind the cue ball and just nudging the cue-ball forward thereby moving the object ball to the rail. At this point, my opponent called this an illegal shot on the basis that I am not allowed to strike the cue-ball while the cue-tip is on the table bed.
Please contribute your viewpoint if you will.
thankyou, Jerry F.....Upstate New York(Endicott)
Click to expand...

That's a new one. Sigel usually finished his draw shots with the shaft on the table. The logic your opponent used feel like he's trying to ''start'' something....and if he can't win, that could very well be his reasoning.
 
L

lll

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ONEPOCKETFISH said:
Sorry.caps are now off. Thanks to all who have made replies.
By way of further explanation as to the particulars of the shot in question, I will explain it this way.....my cue-ball was 1/4 inch away from the object ball which was also 1/4 inch away from the rail. my goal was just to move the object ball to the rail in order to avoid a scratch. In addition, the game i was involved in required me to shoot with only one hand. I chose the method of resting the cue tip on the bed directly behind the cue ball and just nudging the cue-ball forward thereby moving the object ball to the rail. At this point, my opponent called this an illegal shot on the basis that I am not allowed to strike the cue-ball while the cue-tip is on the table bed.
Please contribute your viewpoint if you will.
thankyou, Jerry F.....Upstate New York(Endicott)
Click to expand...

based on your description of the shot it seems like a legal stroke to me
 
O

One pocket Smitty

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The only part of that shot that I thought would be a foul is in your statement you said you shoved the CB, which to me means you stayed in contact with the CB. On you later post you talked about the distance between CB and object ball, sounds to me that there was enough room for you to shove the CB without it being a foul. When you say shove I take it to mean you did not pull the cue stick back on your stroke.---Smitty
 
androd

androd

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ONEPOCKETFISH said:
Sorry.caps are now off. Thanks to all who have made replies.
By way of further explanation as to the particulars of the shot in question, I will explain it this way.....my cue-ball was 1/4 inch away from the object ball which was also 1/4 inch away from the rail. my goal was just to move the object ball to the rail in order to avoid a scratch. In addition, the game i was involved in required me to shoot with only one hand. I chose the method of resting the cue tip on the bed directly behind the cue ball and just nudging the cue-ball forward thereby moving the object ball to the rail. At this point, my opponent called this an illegal shot on the basis that I am not allowed to strike the cue-ball while the cue-tip is on the table bed.
Please contribute your viewpoint if you will.
thankyou, Jerry F.....Upstate New York(Endicott)
Click to expand...

Jerry if you have room try this, put the cue stick where you need it and put the tip slightly under the CB, then hold the shaft near or on the ferrel and raise straight up. A few practices are all you need.
Some say you can't lay the stick on the table, you can if you don't remove your hand.
Rod.
P.S. Welcome

 

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ChalkHead

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I say, not just a foul, but an illegal shot

I say, not just a foul, but an illegal shot

I am one of the players who objects to OnePocketFish's use of the bed of the table to slow his cue tip down so as not to nudge the cue ball too far. I base my objection on two rules: 1) the general rule of pocket billiards that says a player cannot use any equipment for a purpose other than its intended use, and 2) you are only allowed 2 aides, the mechanical bridge and a cue extension. Using the bed of the table as an aide to support and ultimately help to control the cue tip clearly breaks the second rule. Also, I doubt that the intended use of the bed of the table is to allow you to push the cue tip at the cue ball instead of making a legal stroke. Further I would submit that One Pocket rule 6.6 given on this site states that taking intentional fouls is part of the game as long as they are done with a "legal stroke". I suppose one could argue that shoving the cue tip across the bed of the table is a legal stroke. But I think most of us would realize that even though the definition of a legal stroke is somewhat subjective, using the bed of the table is clearly not part of what most of know as a legal stroke. I would like to know the thoughts of other players.
 
I

iusedtoberich

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In a 2 handed game, I'm not sure how the call goes.

But, the OP stated he was playing 1 handed as part of the handicap. When gambling playing one handed, its usually spelled out if you have to shot shots up in the air, or you are allowed to rest the shaft on the table and/or rail. I'd say in this gambling case, the rules you guys established relevant to the one handed handicap would be more relevant than the general rules of pocket billiards.

Note, I stink at 2 handed play, and especially 1 handed play:)
 
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iusedtoberich

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androd said:
Jerry if you have room try this, put the cue stick where you need it and put the tip slightly under the CB, then hold the shaft near or on the ferrel and raise straight up. A few practices are all you need.
Some say you can't lay the stick on the table, you can if you don't remove your hand.
Rod.
P.S. Welcome

Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure this shot was explicitly called illegal in one of the official rule sets. They added language that the cue stick has to move in a "normal forward direction", and side swipes, or upward swipes are explicitly not allowed.
 
androd

androd

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iusedtoberich said:
I'm pretty sure this shot was explicitly called illegal in one of the official rule sets. They added language that the cue stick has to move in a "normal forward direction", and side swipes, or upward swipes are explicitly not allowed.
Click to expand...

You're probably right, I have no idea about the rules, they make'em up and change them all the time.
This would also make the shot he described illegal.
Rod.
P.S. Things like this is why I make my own. It's hard to remember them all when trying to start a game.
 
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beatle

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i see no reason it should be illegal as you are just sliding your cue forward while its resting on the table. so what. only if you are trying to make the cue ball jump than it should be wrong.

but when two are gambling any funny shots you are going to take should be decided before you shoot what is legal or not.

i can rest my hand on the table. my tip can hit the cloth. the butt can rest or hit the rail.
 
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wincardona

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iusedtoberich said:
I'm pretty sure this shot was explicitly called illegal in one of the official rule sets. They added language that the cue stick has to move in a "normal forward direction", and side swipes, or upward swipes are explicitly not allowed.
Click to expand...

I don't know the rule for this situation, but what you say about "side swipes" and "upward swipes" makes sense to me. An upward swipe could be interpreted as 'intentionally' pushing the cue ball. Imo.

Bill Incardona
 
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ONEPOCKETFISH

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Further reply to legal shot or foul

Further reply to legal shot or foul

THANKS TO ALL FOR A GOOD MIX OF REPLIES TO THE ORIGINAL THREAD. WHAT I COME AWAY WITH IS THIS.....THAT, WHEN GAMBLING, THE SPECIFIC RULING(S) HAS TO AGREED UPON IN ADVANCE BETWEEN OPPONENTS. ......AND WHEN IN A TOURNAMENT SITUATION, CONFER WITH A REF BEFORE DOING ANYTHING QUESTIONABLE.
Jerry F.
ENDICOTT, NY
 
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