Overcoming Deficits

Recently I played for $80 per game with a one pocket novice who is an excellent 9 ball player. So as most of you know this can be dangerous as these types of players fire at balls that they shouldn't and make them.

Well to get the guy in the game I gave up 11:8. Pretty soon I was down with him needing 1 and me needing 12.

Normally I would pretty much give up in that spot just to get to the next game. But I decided to fight for it and I squeezed until I got a shot and I ran 7. Then I kept at it until I eventually won the game.

I ended up breaking even with the guy but I discovered that I have some ability to stay in the game even up against a huge deficit. Where I live there is no one pocket and no one who knows how to play so it's just me against all these straight shooting monsters who only know the 8 and out move.

What are your stories of coming back in tough spots like this? Since that one pocket match I have also come back from being 5:0 down to win 7:5 in a big 9 ball match with 2k on the light. And last night I came back in another 9 ball set race to 7 after being down 6:1. Did you ever have a turning point in your game where you realized that it's not ever truly over until the game ball falls?

Personally I feel like I have overcome another plateau in my game now. In the past I have watched pros come back from big deficits and I certainly have taken my share of beatings from players who came back on me. Somehow I just had a lot of give-up in me and didn't want to fight for the game or set, preferring to get to the next one.

But damn, what a great feeling to snatch a set or game from so far down. Especially in one hole. Now I finally understand just how much Cliff Joyner was stealing from me giving up 10:4 or how weak the spot really is getting 12:8 from a much better player. I understand why Cliff would take fouls and not care. Who cares if you're down 6 balls or 16? You still have to play the right way and wait for the shots and run the balls when you get the shot.

I finally understand that each time I finish my turn it's a new game. So I was down 12 balls with him needing one. Big deal. He can only lose from that spot, all the pressure is on him and not me and if I steal that game then it's really demoralizing.

So give it up what's your stories of winning with your back to the wall?

onepocketchump said:

So give it up what's your stories of winning with your back to the wall?

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OPC,

I can't really remember coming back from a big deficit but I can tell you a story about the guy I was playing coming back from a big deficit.

It was about "86"-"87" and I was playing Cornbread on a snooker table. He was giving me 10-6. I needed 1 and he needed 10 this particular game and he put me in a position to foul once or twice and then he ran a few and then he won the game. I swear that I still don't know how it happened but it did. If it had been anyone but Red I wouldn't tell anybody about it but the truth is that I lost needing one ball when he needed 10 balls. He played a helluva game to pull it out and I'm sure I learned something that I've since forgotten .

It's always a heck of a thing when you come from behind to win. It's a good trait to have if you get behind a lot .

Dennis

Earlier tonight I was down -2 to 6, getting 9 to 6. That is a huge deficit when your getting 9-6 from a guy, him needing 3 and myself 8 is just a horrible spot. I fought hard and ended up winning that game, lost the set but you win some and lose some. I have been on a bit of a losing streak lately and realize for myself I need more practice to just work on the fundamentals and basics of the game for awhile until I get right.

Fundamentals and Aiming

Fundamentals and Aiming

This will surely open a huge can of worms but I give a ton of credit to me getting better lately to learning to aim using CTE and then fixing my stroke. So many people said that if you have a great stroke then you will automatically aim right so I tried to play some without using CTE and missed plenty. But when using CTE and with my new and improved stroke I am at least two balls better than I was a few months ago. That has given me a lot of confidence to overcome the mental demons so I can fight back when I am down.

It's funny but last night I beat a guy two sets in nine ball easily and in the third set I got to talking with someone else and I was down 6:1 before I knew it. So the guy I was talking to left and I focused on the game. Now here is the kicker, at 6:1 down I felt like the favorite. Honest to God I fully expected to win the set and I did. I put a four pack on him to go to 6-5 and then he dogged a shot and I got to 6-6 - and then he dogged a shot with four balls on the table.

I don't know, I can't wait to get back to the States and match up some playing one hole to see if my game really has gotten a couple balls better.

For me personally CTE is the triple nuts playing one hole. I will explain in another thread why I feel this way with some examples. But anyway.....just liking the new me on the pool table.

Regarding CTE, hey man, if it feels good, do it

Regarding great comebacks, I remember being down to a local player in Houston 10-6 going to 11 and I broke and ran out the set, playing 9 ball. The funny thing is the guy turned around and beat me 11-1 the next set! I was kicking the whole set! Good thing is a still won the session

Pool is a great game because more often that not results are really all on you. Obviously, each turn at the table is a chance to win or improve position. But also, each time you're sitting you have a choice for how to deal with what's happening. I had a playing partner who liked to not look at his opponent shoot. He would look down, look away, whatever. Myself, I liked watching everything. For one, I think it would keep me mentally in stroke because I would look at each shot as a "what would I do here." And I would just remind myself to stay ready to come to the table again, because you never know.

A bit of wisdom I received from a great player.

Even if you are hopelessly behind in a game of one pocket battle relentlessly for every ball. You may still lose the game but I guarantee that it will have some effect the next game or the one after that.

Never never quit, never give up. I cannot tell how many games of one pocket I have won when everything looked hopeless.

Good advice for everyday life as well.

Bill Stroud

OPC brings up an interesting point. More than any other pool game, one-pocket seems to allow for overcoming deficits. How many times have you been ahead of a guy 6-1 or 7-1, only to see that lead steadily shrink, oftentimes resulting in a loss for the guy who had been comfortably ahead?

Why do you suppose that is? It could be that the answer lies in the fact that, since so much of 1P concerns safety play, it depends upon how well a guy can control the game (and himself) so as not to leave the opponent a viable shot.

The crux of the matter may be that the player in the lead oftentimes weakens, and has the tendency to attempt an unnecessarily risky shot to win, which leaves the opponent openings to climb back into the game.

Another consideration is that when a player has his "back to the wall", he'll attempt more difficult shots that, if made, lead to his getting back into the game. When that happens, you can almost feel the momentum shift.

Opinions?

Doc

before i answer doc
WHATS CTE?????????


when 2 players have equal ability to run alot of balls when given a shot it all comes down to the squeeze. imho
thats where artie (artie correct me if im wrong) beleives if you suffocate the shooter eventually he cant shoot anymore
once ahead you have to maintain control of the table.
if you slip up bingo they go 6..7..8.... and out.
on the other hand when looking at defeat survival mode sets in
"the flyer " i would bet is made in a higher percentage of time in those circumstances because of desperation
im curious what others think

lll said:

before i answer doc
WHATS CTE?????????

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I believe CTE means Center To Edge, which is an aiming system that provides various aiming spots on the OB based upon whether the hit is three-quarter ball, half ball, quarter ball, etc. The system is fairly common in usage, and is well explained in threads on other sites.

Doc

gulfportdoc said:

I believe CTE means Center To Edge, which is an aiming system that provides various aiming spots on the OB based upon whether the hit is three-quarter ball, half ball, quarter ball, etc. The system is fairly common in usage, and is well explained in threads on other sites.

Doc

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thanks doc

gulfportdoc said:

I believe CTE means Center To Edge, which is an aiming system that provides various aiming spots on the OB based upon whether the hit is three-quarter ball, half ball, quarter ball, etc. The system is fairly common in usage, and is well explained in threads on other sites.

Doc

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Sorry Doc...But CTE is NOT "well explained" ANYWHERE !!! ...It is a theory that is espoused by players who have trouble making a ball go in the hole..It has led to more flame wars, than any other topic...I feel sorry for the "pro" CTE guys, who think it actually works !...Good Luck, and more power to them.. IT IS A CRUEL JOKE !!!...

Got to go with Dick on this one.

They should get the orange Mosconi book or the Joe Davis "Advanced Snooker" to find out what they are really aiming at.

Bill Stroud

Cte?

Cte?

Actually CTE is now explained just fine in more than one place. But that's another topic for another board.

Regardless of how a player is aiming they still have to execute and bring it. And that's what it comes down to when you are down in one hole.

I kind of disagree with the idea that you have to take on more difficult shots to get yourself back into the game. I think that if you just play solid one pocket by taking the right shots and force your opponent to sell out shots then you can put the heat on him and force him to be the one taking flyers.

If I learned anything from watching all the top players giving up weight to Dippy it was that playing smart and forcing the error is where it's at. I saw that once they forced Dippy to sell out then they would run 8 or better most of the time.

So I think that basically the move when you're down is to continue to play the right shots and squeeze until you get the opportunities. I think it takes a lot of discipline to not take the do or die shots when you're down. Everyone says be more aggressive when you're down and more defensive when you're up in balls. Protect your lead when you're up and all that.

I think you should protect yourself all the time. Not to the point where you don't take direct shots to your hole of course as I have heard that some people do. I mean I took some one pocket lessons from a very good player who said not to be afraid to shoot when there is a shot. He said that leads to indecision and a weak delivery. He said when you have a shot you have to take it and make it and keep running out.

Anyway.....it's still a great feeling to come back from big deficits no matter how you get there. I think a lot of us know the sick feeling of being come back on, I know I have many more stories of "giving it away" than I do of coming from behind to win. It's real nice to finally see in one hole how it feels to have it go the other way.

onepocketchump said:

I kind of disagree with the idea that you have to take on more difficult shots to get yourself back into the game. I think that if you just play solid one pocket by taking the right shots and force your opponent to sell out shots then you can put the heat on him and force him to be the one taking flyers.

If I learned anything from watching all the top players giving up weight to Dippy it was that playing smart and forcing the error is where it's at. I saw that once they forced Dippy to sell out then they would run 8 or better most of the time.

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With respect OPC, you might be talking about forcing errors out of your opponent AND your opponent making an unforced error in the same light. They are two very different things that separate the men from the boys in one pocket.

Depending on your opponent's skill level, you may be able to nip and tuck and dink and dunk until he finally sells out and you can run a few and get back in the game...but try doing that against someone who knows the game and can execute, it's just not going to work enough to keep your wallet heavy.

Sometimes sitting and waiting for the opponent's error is the correct thing to do, other times you have to make them make an error or shoot a shot that will get you back in the game that you might not otherwise shoot if you were ahead.

I've probably lost as many or more games as the people who like to dink around. I certainly lost them much quicker.

Naturally, if I'm playing someone 12/6 I'll wait. When playing someone my own speed or getting spotted and get way behind I'm going to find something to shoot even if I leave a long shot for my opponent.

I pick my spot where I lose the game. I will not be tortured. I played many games even with a guy who, when he got behind he'd help me push the balls uptable. I can't remember him ever winning one.

Rod.
PS, As Archie Bunker said "Patience is a virgin" I just haven't any when way behind.

Last week Nick Varner was in town doing an exhibition and I grabbed him for a moment and asked a few questions about 1P and he said something to explains a lot to me: If you're playing a guy and he runs 4 or 5 then has to try and defend, he's no longer the favorite for that game until he moves all the balls up table. If you leave the stack in place, that's just too many options for the opponent.

Just because you need 1 and the other guy needs 8 (or 10), you're not guaranteed to win.

As for my own deficit story, the hall I play at has only one "good" table so it's common for 4 of us to play doubles 1p. One game my partner and I were down -2 to 6 in ball count. (playing even) The other team started shooting at everything; thinking they had plenty of "room to spare". Well, sure enough, we started making all those flyers they left down-table and we eventually came back to win 8-7. They were really pissed afterwards, but I'm not sure they actually learned anything.

if i am down that many balls i rack them up and forfeit that game. i dont want to win it. if i do it takes all the gas out of my opponent and he will quit. so i lose him for just one game. plus that one game will be a long one and i could have gotten two games in during it that i was a big favorite at.

The MOST EPIC comeback of my life, playing a pretty sporty opponent who can make almost anything...

http://onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2393

beatle said:

if i am down that many balls i rack them up and forfeit that game. i dont want to win it. if i do it takes all the gas out of my opponent and he will quit. so i lose him for just one game. plus that one game will be a long one and i could have gotten two games in during it that i was a big favorite at.

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I understand this concept as well. I used to think the same thing. But I have come around lately to think not about what they will do as I am not out to hustle anyone into playing and more about what I want out of pool.

In this respect it's more important for me to fight for the game and prove to myself that I can do it.

senor said:

With respect OPC, you might be talking about forcing errors out of your opponent AND your opponent making an unforced error in the same light. They are two very different things that separate the men from the boys in one pocket.

Depending on your opponent's skill level, you may be able to nip and tuck and dink and dunk until he finally sells out and you can run a few and get back in the game...but try doing that against someone who knows the game and can execute, it's just not going to work enough to keep your wallet heavy.

Sometimes sitting and waiting for the opponent's error is the correct thing to do, other times you have to make them make an error or shoot a shot that will get you back in the game that you might not otherwise shoot if you were ahead.

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I think that I am referring to controlling the game and forcing him to shoot the wrong shots. I don't know if any of you actually apply chess to one pocket but I do. I try to see three or four shots ahead and predict what my opponent's move will be. Obviously this strategy often doesn't work out as planned but a lot of times it does, especially when I am playing a one pocket novice who doesn't know the moves. I find I can lure them into taking shots which leave makeable banks for me , lure them into leaving the cue ball in a position where the next shot I shoot locks them up.

I do really try to force them to take the shots I want them to.

Unfortunately some of these straight shooters here in China don't understand that they aren't supposed to make those shots and they rifle them in the hole. :-(