The Real Price off a Free Scratch

Cowboy Dennis said:

Rod,

I have a question for you: Have you been drinking tequila tonight???

Cowboy "Jameson Drinker" Dennis

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Last nite, jusy voudka and beer tonite.
Rod.

wincardona said:

Larry,
this is an excellent question and I will try to explain how these things (spots)are evaluated.

Basically we have 2 kinds of spots ....intangeable spots...,and single ball spots..

.INTANGEABLE SPOTS: like Giving up the break, or two hit and the pick. or a free push (free scratch) scratches don't count, two and stop,ect.ect. GET IT? These types of spots (handicapps) are evaluated by playing them a countless number of times and sharing information with other players who have played them and get their FEEL on how much they think their worth.

That's why, even today we really can't put a true ball value on the strength of the break, or two hit and the pick, or scratches don't count, or two and stop. or even one free push, believe it or not. All of the above spots, and there are many more that haven't been discussed, all carry that blanket of intangeable, sprinkled with discretionary decisions that keeps everything clouded to the point that it's still not clear what they are worth.

SINGLE BALL SPOTS : Like 8 to7, or 10 to 8, 10 to 7, 18 to 4, or any spot that it is not clouded with something that would preclude you from understanding that there is an advantage, and who has it. Plus it's much easier to renegotiate something that is obvious to the eye, and pocket.

Word of advice. In all intangeable spots, always refer to a proposition man like Jack Cooney, or the Freddies, and Rodney's of the world to get their opinion before getting involved. After all it's all discretionary.

Trust me, i'm a doctor.

Billy I.

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DR.BILL
your explanation that the only way the free scratch could be evaluated was after multiple games with and without it and analyzzing the result between the 2 players playing
if this was done among many match ups among many players ( like 2 hits antthe pick or results after the break) we could determine a concensus opinion based on results what the free scratch is worth.
although arties mathematical calculation is accurate
i dont beleive the player getting 20-10 the free scratch means as much as the player getting 8-4

bstroud said:

One thing about the free scratch that has not be mentioned is the fact that a weak player ofter chooses the wrong time to take one. In my experience weak players often take a scratch for a sure safety and give up the opportunity to take a small risk for a more aggressive shot.

I know the hardest weak players to spot and beat were always the ones that shot at everything. Giving an aggressive weak player 8 to 4 was always tough.

Billy Stroud

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Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.

lll said:

DR.BILL
your explanation that the only way the free scratch could be evaluated was after multiple games with and without it and analyzzing the result between the 2 players playing
if this was done among many match ups among many players ( like 2 hits antthe pick or results after the break) we could determine a concensus opinion based on results what the free scratch is worth.
although arties mathematical calculation is accurate
i dont beleive the player getting 20-10 the free scratch means as much as the player getting 8-4

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That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????

Artie Bodendorfer said:

That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????

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The shorter the game the better the free scratch ie. Because you can put your oponent in a spot were he has too take a scratch back. And your scratch is free and his will coset him a ball.

But if you keep taking scratches with him. You are taking way the worst off it. Even with your free dcratch. Because you are not getting the correct price . When its scratch for scratch. Do you agree with this. If not then Explain WHY???

Artie Bodendorfer said:

Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.

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And if the weak player takes the scratch at the wrong time. Then the scratch is worth more too the better player.

Artie Bodendorfer said:

THe handy cap Rule needs to change with a free scratch... If someone is spotting you 10 to 5, thier sctatches should cost them 2 to 1. It is impossable that both off your scratches should be equal when you are getting 2 to 1 on your balls. I realy hope that you can see how true this is.

If a player is spothing another player 21 to 3 how much is one ball worth compaired too the good players balls? 7 to 1.

So If the week player sctatches it costs him one ball. If the good player scratches it costs him one ball. We all no thats wrong and out off line. But thats they way its been. From the begining. The cooect numder off balls that the good player should pay for a scratch is 7 to 1 .

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This is good stuff, and it seems mathematically correct. And by the way, I assume that you're using "scratch" to mean any foul-- such as an intentional foul, a ball jumped off the table, etc.

It's easy to see that if I'm getting 10-5, then my opponent's fouls should be worth 2 to my 1. If he makes a foul he should theoretically owe 2.

What interests me is: what is the value of a scratch on lesser, or more common spots? For example at 10-6, the better player's scratches should be worth 1.66 of the lesser player's. But how could 2/3rds of a ball be valued? How would it be calculated in balls for purposes of handicapping? It seems as though if the better player were to try to equalize the scratch, that he might give 11-6; but that would be 1/3rd ball too much.

And how about the same consideration with 9-7 (1.28), 10-8 (1.24), etc.?

Another thing: If a guy was getting 9-3, that would mean that the better player's scratches would be worth 3 to the lesser player's 1. If they played with that 3-1 stipulation, then aren't they essentially playing even? 9-9? There must be a flaw in there somewhere...

Doc

androd said:

One other thought that I haven't posted. All the people that posted the free scratch taken at the opportune time would win the game. Well it would also win the game if they weren't getting that free scratch. (Or get really close)
So that may have no bearing on the spot.
Rod.

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Rod, Rod, Rod, you keep forgeting who you're dealing with maybe it's an aging thing......no, you are not correcting "all the people" with what you've stated in this post...because where myself and my scenario are concerned, your counter-argument is invalid...in my hypothetical scenario, when the shooter puts his opponent in a deathtrap that wins him the game - he had no way to put the cueball where he needed to, to achieve that with a legal shot - he could only do so by not hitting a ball and a rail, ie. - taking a scratch...

- Fantasma

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Artie Bodendorfer said:

That is correct if its the same two players.

I said that the bigger the spot.

The better for the better player. Even if the odds and percentages are the same.Like 20 to 10 Or 40 to 20.

I will give you another exampel so you are aware off what can happen.

If gab was playing Dave a even number game like 4 to 1 or 5 to 1. It can als o be better for the better player. Because how short the game is.

And Gab can run out on one shot. Just like Dave can. And Her is why it can be good for thr good player.

Because he shoild get the first shot too win the game. And If they start taking fouls both players.

That also is better for the better player. Because its ball for ball. And good players make longer games. Because they think its better for them.

And a shorter game is better for the better shooter. Her is something worth learning. And if you know it already. Then you dont need too learn it.


If you have a bad game the shorter the game the better it is for the player with the bad game. And the shorter the game the better for the better shooter.

So you have something too think about???????

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III To evaluate what a free scratch is worth after many gamesIs completuy wrong and incorrect. Because you are getting the spot in the beginning off the game .

Thats the only realistick way that you can figure out the correvt odds or
percentages. Because What Billy said is incorrect. What he is doing is trying too figure out what he thinks the scratch is worth . By what the player did with his scratch.

And that is useless because the next game has nothing to do with the scratch he took the game before. And every new game it will be a different situation.

And you cannot make the odds on a scratch after the player takes it. What good would it do? And yes you could probable make a price for each game the player takes his scratch.

But it would not have the same value as the start off the game. All you are doing is making up a price off what he thinks the price should be on his scratch he took.

And you will have a different price. And a different situation. And even if he makes a price on the scratch. Before he uses the scratch in that spot. Everyone will make a different price on the scratch.

And he has hag the free scratch available allready. And a nother reason that would not help is because. We dont even no when he is going too use his scratch.

Or maybe he wont use the sdratch at all. But If he does not use the scratch? Then the scratch was worth nothing.

And all off this will not change what the value off one off Daves balls is worth too Gabs balls. And again if Dave or you are not getting a free scratch. Then your ball is worth the percentage off what the spot is.

And that does not change. And if you are getting 8 to 4 and the man spotting you scratches on pourpose. And you scratch back and forth with him. You Will loose. And if he spots you 2 to 1 on balls. Why should you only take one for one.

Because thats what the rules are. And I am sure everybody can see that. And If you are betting any game and you are getting 2 to one. And the game is still a 2 to 1 shoot during the game. You wouldnt take even money. Would you because thats what you are doing. Because off the bad rules.

ITS NOBODYS FAULTE THATS JUST THE WAY THE RULES WERE MADE UP. But the were made up for a even game. 8 to 8 not 20 to 5.

I hope everyone can see this. And waithing for a player to scratch and see what he does with the scratch. Will not help you after he takes the scratch. Because if you make a price after the scratch? What good is it? You are talking about the resulte off the scdatch.

Thisis a lot off work breacking everthing down. Si I hope you can learn from this.

Artie Bodendorfer said:

Most people take a scratch.

Because they are in trouble. And want too get out off the trap.

And by taking a scratch. It gives them a chance to get out off trouble.

And they might get out off the trap.

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Welcome too the site. Billy Stroud. I never thought it would be like this when I got older. But I am still thankfull too be her. I never new that it would be so hard for people too agree. Imagine what its like being on a jury?

One Pocket Ghost said:

Rod, Rod, Rod, you keep forgeting who you're dealing with maybe it's an aging thing......no, you are not correcting "all the people" with what you've stated in this post...because where myself and my scenario are concerned, your counter-argument is invalid...in my hypothetical scenario, when the shooter puts his opponent in a deathtrap that wins him the game - he had no way to put the cueball where he needed to, to achieve that with a legal shot - he could only do so by not hitting a ball and a rail, ie. - taking a scratch...

- Fantasma

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Goats, goats, goats, goats (I'm leading 4/3)
Yes, but if he's running 8 and out, maybe he'd run 9 and out, or if not he'd be in the one hole. Having that free scratch doesn't mean he'd see something he wouldn't see playing even.
Rod.
PS, If you recognized one of these death traps wouldn't you shoot it whether or not you had a free scratch ? answer please.

Artie.....Just wanted to ask you and/or Billy something that I thought of, just out of curiosity...I'm asking seriously, not joking...

When you and Billy played partners against John H. and Ricky Byrd...when it was your teams time to shoot and you conferred about what shot to shoot - how much of the time did you two agree on what was the best shot to shoot - 60%? - 75%? - 90%?, or ?%

- Ghost

androd said:

Goats, goats, goats, goats (I'm leading 4/3)
Yes, but if he's running 8 and out, maybe he'd run 9 and out, or if not he'd be in the one hole. Having that free scratch doesn't mean he'd see something he wouldn't see playing even.
Rod.
PS, If you recognized one of these death traps wouldn't you shoot it whether or not you had a free scratch ? answer please.

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Rod x infinity (I won ).....I'm only speaking for my hypothetical scenarios, not yours...

- Fantasma

One Pocket Ghost said:

Rod x infinity (I won ).....I'm only speaking for my hypothetical scenarios, not yours...

- Fantasma

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Mr. Skywalker
Let me refresh your memory. We're both speaking of your senario.

One Pocket Ghost said:

You're playing a guy 8 to 8, but you get a scratch - It's the 4th inning of the game, 0 to 0 - You use your scratch to put your opponent in a bad trap - He tries to get out of it and sells out - You run 8 and out....How much was that scratch just worth to you that game?....

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Yes, but if you're running 8 and out, maybe you'd run 9 and out, or if not you'd be in the one hole. Having that free scratch doesn't mean you'd see something you wouldn't see playing even.
Rod.
PS, If you recognized one of these death traps wouldn't you shoot it whether or not you had a free scratch ? answer please.
PPS, Please don't fade out on the question. I'm getting older and can't wait. It's an age thing.

androd said:

Mr. Skywalker
Let me refresh your memory. We're both speaking of your senario.



Yes, but if you're running 8 and out, maybe you'd run 9 and out, or if not you'd be in the one hole. Having that free scratch doesn't mean you'd see something you wouldn't see playing even. ------- Didn't you read my post I said, that in my scenario, I couldn't put him in the deathtrap without using an intentional.
Rod.

PS, If you recognized one of these death traps wouldn't you shoot it whether or not you had a free scratch ? answer please. -------If I could, of course I would - that's a silly question...
PPS, Please don't fade out on the question. I'm getting older and can't wait. It's an age thing.

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- Fantasma

gulfportdoc said:

This is good stuff, and it seems mathematically correct. And by the way, I assume that you're using "scratch" to mean any foul-- such as an intentional foul, a ball jumped off the table, etc.

It's easy to see that if I'm getting 10-5, then my opponent's fouls should be worth 2 to my 1. If he makes a foul he should theoretically owe 2.

What interests me is: what is the value of a scratch on lesser, or more common spots? For example at 10-6, the better player's scratches should be worth 1.66 of the lesser player's. But how could 2/3rds of a ball be valued? How would it be calculated in balls for purposes of handicapping? It seems as though if the better player were to try to equalize the scratch, that he might give 11-6; but that would be 1/3rd ball too much.

And how about the same consideration with 9-7 (1.28), 10-8 (1.24), etc.?

Another thing: If a guy was getting 9-3, that would mean that the better player's scratches would be worth 3 to the lesser player's 1. If they played with that 3-1 stipulation, then aren't they essentially playing even? 9-9? There must be a flaw in there somewhere...

Doc

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Very good I am very glad that you understand what I am saying. And I dont tell anyone that they have too agree with me. Because the rules need too be changed. And who is going too change them. Will the people who make the rules even understand this?

If you can get the correct percentagesor probability off the spot. You can ajust . At the start off the game. I will go by your math. 9 to 7 is 1.28..So the player going too 9 should be paying more for his scratch then the player going too 7.

If the player who is getting 9 to 3 sctatches and it cost him one ball. And the good player scratches and it costs him one ball. Then they are playing even on thier scratches. And if you play by those rules you are still playing him 9 to 3 .

But even on his sctatches. And if you both would scratch your game would go to 10 to 4. Instead off 12 to 4 . Withch would be the correct percentages. And as far as playing 9 to 7 or 6 or 6 to 5 YOu could ajust the game.

Or each person pays his scratches with a different money percentage. In a close game like 8 to 7 or 9 to 8 the balls value is not as valubale as 16 to 4. But in the close games you could ajust the scratch price with a money line. And the weeker player only gets the extra money if he wins.

And For the odd spread games. I will think about it and let you know what will work. And whats fair and easy.

And thier might have too be another rule too be fair. And thats what this is about. And Im sure If you are playing someone 8 to 4 and you both scratch twice you are playing him 10 to 6 and I am sure that you would not like that game. And one more thing that I want to clairify. I do noy tanyone will disagree with what I am going too say.

The rule they use now scratch for scratch. Is in the favor off the petter player. And the bigger the spot the worse the rule is for the weeker player. And By saying that the fair and correct thing to do is too change the rule and maki it fairer for the weaker player. But I will stick with it and see what happines.

Artie Bodendorfer said:

Very good I am very glad that you understand what I am saying. And I dont tell anyone that they have too agree with me. Because the rules need too be changed. And who is going too change them. Will the people who make the rules even understand this?

If you can get the correct percentagesor probability off the spot. You can ajust . At the start off the game. I will go by your math. 9 to 7 is 1.28..So the player going too 9 should be paying more for his scratch then the player going too 7.

If the player who is getting 9 to 3 sctatches and it cost him one ball. And the good player scratches and it costs him one ball. Then they are playing even on thier scratches. And if you play by those rules you are still playing him 9 to 3 .

But even on his sctatches. And if you both would scratch your game would go to 10 to 4. Instead off 12 to 4 . Withch would be the correct percentages. And as far as playing 9 to 7 or 6 or 6 to 5 YOu could ajust the game.

Or each person pays his scratches with a different money percentage. In a close game like 8 to 7 or 9 to 8 the balls value is not as valubale as 16 to 4. But in the close games you could ajust the scratch price with a money line. And the weeker player only gets the extra money if he wins.

And For the odd spread games. I will think about it and let you know what will work. And whats fair and easy.

And thier might have too be another rule too be fair. And thats what this is about. And Im sure If you are playing someone 8 to 4 and you both scratch twice you are playing him 10 to 6 and I am sure that you would not like that game. And one more thing that I want to clairify. I do noy tanyone will disagree with what I am going too say.

The rule they use now scratch for scratch. Is in the favor off the petter player. And the bigger the spot the worse the rule is for the weeker player. And By saying that the fair and correct thing to do is too change the rule and maki it fairer for the weaker player. But I will stick with it and see what happines.

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A scratch should be used too win the game or get out off trouble. Why else would some one want too give a ball away. And most off the games are one without a scratch.

But a free scratch gives us a better game. Espcialy if we get its worth. But the real good players usualy dont take a intenionale scratch. Unless they have too. And most off the time people take a intantionale scratch when the are in trouble.

All this scratching stuff is making me dizzy. Whenever you play someone 8 to 7 or 8 to 3, the possibility of either player scratching is or should be factored in when you make the game. So if you're going to change the scratch penalty based on the ball spot, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE THE SPOT.

Games (spots) are made based on the rules we play by, so if you're going to change the scratch penalty for each player, then you're going to have to renegotiate the spot.

Another thing, this free scratch thing was originally brought up in regard to the game Dippie had with Gabe. Artie was trying to evaluate the value of the free scratch that Dippie was getting. Well it's going to be very hard to do that because what Dippie was getting WAS NOT A FREE SCRATCH. It actually was a free PUSH. If you recall Dippie had to stipulate before he shoots that he was taking his PUSH. And one free push per game for Dippie is not worth 4 1/2 gabe balls, or 1 Dippie ball. Totally rediculous.

Does anyone actually think that if Gabe said to Dippie....Dippie, i'll give you 13 1/2 to 4 but no free scratch (that's taking the 4 1/2 balls off of Gabes spot) Dippie would play? Dippie would laugh at him, and I don't blame him.

Am I the only one that understands this? Or am I actually that far off base?

If this insanity keeps up i'm going to need a doctor.

Billy I.

wincardona said:

All this scratching stuff is making me dizzy. Whenever you play someone 8 to 7 or 8 to 3, the possibility of either player scratching is or should be factored in when you make the game. So if you're going to change the scratch penalty based on the ball spot, THEN YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE TO CHANGE THE SPOT.

Games (spots) are made based on the rules we play by, so if you're going to change the scratch penalty for each player, then you're going to have to renegotiate the spot.

Another thing, this free scratch thing was originally brought up in regard to the game Dippie had with Gabe. Artie was trying to evaluate the value of the free scratch that Dippie was getting. Well it's going to be very hard to do that because what Dippie was getting WAS NOT A FREE SCRATCH. It actually was a free PUSH. If you recall Dippie had to stipulate before he shoots that he was taking his PUSH. And one free push per game for Dippie is not worth 4 1/2 gabe balls, or 1 Dippie ball. Totally rediculous.

Does anyone actually think that if Gabe said to Dippie....Dippie, i'll give you 13 1/2 to 4 but no free scratch (that's taking the 4 1/2 balls off of Gabes spot) Dippie would play? Dippie would laugh at him, and I don't blame him.

Am I the only one that understands this? Or am I actually that far off base?

If this insanity keeps up i'm going to need a doctor.

Billy I.

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Now thats entirely different.

So he could actually declare "I push" and make a LEGAL hit.....so what the hell is it worth then? Nothing. As opposed to taking a shot and THEN stating "thats my free scratch".



Shit, all the mathamatical calculations are all screwed up then Billy, now they have to start from SCRATCH!!!!





Somehow this thread has to die.

stevelomako said:

Somehow this thread has to die.

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This thread ain't over till sunnyone says it's over, is it over sunnyone?

Steve L.<<<<----------always the prankster