Why Do Philippine Players Learn One Pocket So Fast?

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.

DeeMan asked a question - My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

I gave him my opinion - The main game in the Philippines is rotation, and the imagination and shotmaking needed in that game would put them ahead of the curve playing one pocket, IMO.

The top Filipino players we are familiar with have quite a bit more knowledge and experience with a tougher game than most of our top players and seem to take to one pocket very easily. A rotation game with 15 balls is just harder to master than 9 or 10 ball, with much more imagination needed which converts easily to learning one pocket. Now you add in the popularity of high level pool in the Philippines compared to what is here and you have another reason they have adapted to one pocket so well.

We know that Freddie taught Efren (Couldn't resist Fred), but I think Freddie's and other opinions would be interesting to hear.

jrhendy said:

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.

DeeMan asked a question - My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

I gave him my opinion - The main game in the Philippines is rotation, and the imagination and shotmaking needed in that game would put them ahead of the curve playing one pocket, IMO.

The top Filipino players we are familiar with have quite a bit more knowledge and experience with a tougher game than most of our top players and seem to take to one pocket very easily. A rotation game with 15 balls is just harder to master than 9 or 10 ball, with much more imagination needed which converts easily to learning one pocket. Now you add in the popularity of high level pool in the Philippines compared to what is here and you have another reason they have adapted to one pocket so well.

We know that Freddie taught Efren (Couldn't resist Fred), but I think Freddie's and other opinions would be interesting to hear.

Click to expand...

Well said John....

Rotation makes 9 ball look as easy as cuthroat....

Dud

jrhendy said:

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.

DeeMan asked a question - My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

I gave him my opinion - The main game in the Philippines is rotation, and the imagination and shotmaking needed in that game would put them ahead of the curve playing one pocket, IMO.

The top Filipino players we are familiar with have quite a bit more knowledge and experience with a tougher game than most of our top players and seem to take to one pocket very easily. A rotation game with 15 balls is just harder to master than 9 or 10 ball, with much more imagination needed which converts easily to learning one pocket. Now you add in the popularity of high level pool in the Philippines compared to what is here and you have another reason they have adapted to one pocket so well.

We know that Freddie taught Efren (Couldn't resist Fred), but I think Freddie's and other opinions would be interesting to hear.

Click to expand...

John, funny you should post this tonight....

I just got back from the poolroom, and I got drilled there tonight by one of my Filipino buddies - he just shoots waay too straight...and now he moves good too...I gotta quit playing him...

- Ghost

"

jrhendy said:

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.

DeeMan asked a question - My question is how the very young guys learn so fast? It seems some of the Filipino players play at just about the highest levels after very little actual one pocket experience. I know straight shooting makes up for a lot of mistakes but how do we explain guys like that picking up in a couple of years what it seems to take some many, many years to master?

I gave him my opinion - The main game in the Philippines is rotation, and the imagination and shotmaking needed in that game would put them ahead of the curve playing one pocket, IMO.

The top Filipino players we are familiar with have quite a bit more knowledge and experience with a tougher game than most of our top players and seem to take to one pocket very easily. A rotation game with 15 balls is just harder to master than 9 or 10 ball, with much more imagination needed which converts easily to learning one pocket. Now you add in the popularity of high level pool in the Philippines compared to what is here and you have another reason they have adapted to one pocket so well.

We know that Freddie taught Efren (Couldn't resist Fred), but I think Freddie's and other opinions would be interesting to hear.

Click to expand...

John,

I agree with all you've posted...I would just like to further add...I think, the main reason the Filipino's adapted so well, is that they competed with each other, on a regular basis so often.
They lacked the fear (think New York) that many American player's felt, about feeling "stupid" if they made a bad game , or lost a few $$$.
That fear has been instilled in our younger player's of today. From T-ball, all through college...It is drummed into their head, that winning is ALL there is. Gaining experience, by playing better player's...is secondary. It should be pointed out, that you HAVE to learn to lose, before you know how to win. Do you want to "hustle" pool, and look for the nuts, or do you want to become the best player you can be ?

Guy's like Efren, Parica, and Busty, were never saddled with those worries. They came to play, and winning was just a by-product....Very few American player's had that mindset...It was all about matching up good, and "looking" like winner !...JMHO

PS..John,....Please do not "over-gig" the Beard...In case you haven't noticed, he is already a little distraught..

They learn every game on a pool table faster then anyone else because they play better then everyone else.

One Pocket Ghost said:

John, funny you should post this tonight....

I just got back from the poolroom, and I got drilled there tonight by one of my Filipino buddies - he just shoots waay too straight...and now he moves good too...I gotta quit playing him...

- Ghost

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Do I detect a chink in the "failsafe" armor ?....

SJDinPHX said:

Do I detect a chink in the failsafe armor ?....

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Papie....You consistently make the error of lumping me in with Artie and Freddy with all your "Chicago boys" comments.....I'm a humble guy - I never said that I beat everybody - I got no beat list - I do have a gigantic broke-even list though...........I take the worst of it on a regular basis - guys rush over to get to me when I walk in the poolroom....but that's ok, I just like to play...

- Ghosty

Only a Chicagoan could even try that move....

Only a Chicagoan could even try that move....

(

One Pocket Ghost said:

Papie....You consistently make the error of lumping me in with Artie and Freddy with all your "Chicago boys" comments...I'm a humble guy - I never said that I beat everybody - I got no beat list - I do have a gigantic broke-even list though...I take the worst of it on a regular basis - guys rush over to get to me when I walk in the poolroom....but that's ok, I just like to play

- Ghosty

Click to expand...

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeze Ghosty....Its a little too late for you to try and play the "humble" card... Your ego, and Chicago braggadacio is second only to AB...(El Beardo is obviously in a class by himself..)

I allready know that spotting you twenty-some years, will not be a cakewalk,... I will have to count on you dogging it...(not a big stretch)...So give it a rest will ya !...This may be my last hurrah,...if you or Artie, (or both) beat me...I will get a job as a greeter at Walmart, and fade quietly into the sunset... (but I will still hang around to needle Fred, until they throw that last shovel full of dirt on me..)

The Duck <---is still grasping for the 60's to re-surface...prolly ain't gonna happen..

PS..I will defer to John H. playing AB first, he has seniority...(plus... maybe he will weaken him)

SJDinPHX said:

" It should be pointed out, that you HAVE to learn to lose, before you know how to win.

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Don't bother trying to explain this to too many players, they'll just look at you like you're a loser while they're asking you for weight. People who don't understand this will never understand it. They don't have that mindset.

Cowboy Dennis said:

Don't bother trying to explain this to too many players, they'll just look at you like you're a loser while they're asking you for weight. People who don't understand this will never understand it. They don't have that mindset.

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What the hell are you doing up this late ? Is it snowing there yet ?

jrhendy said:

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.

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Alright then, I'll copy and paste my post: John pretty much answered the question. But I think the key to Filipinos adapting well to 1P is cueball control. There is a proud tradition of rotation over there, although I'm not sure it's played nearly as much today. And one-pocket is not played much at all. Helfert said if one wants to play 1P over there, they damn near have to play Efren.

But the fact is that rotation players, 8-ballers, and --even more so-- straight pool players are going to be able to maneuver the CB in much tighter quarters than are 9-ball players.

Another possible reason is that presumably the standards are much higher for performance over there. There are probably loads of youngsters who are dying to learn to play well, who either can't afford to play, or when they can play they play on crappy equipment. All that leads to a yearning to play at the highest levels they can.

Doc

Before I reply.....

Before I reply.....

jrhendy said:

I didn't want to highjack the Appleton - Peat thread anymore than we already have so I am starting a new one.


....We know that Freddie taught Efren (Couldn't resist Fred), but I think Freddie's and other opinions would be interesting to hear.

Click to expand...

...I need to know if that comment was meant to be informative or sarcastic. Which is it? Is it, "Freddie taught Efren, ha ha ha," or is it, "Efren played his 1st game of one pocket with Freddie and Freddie played him 10 to 8. They played at the Billiard Cafe 4 or 5 times a week for a year. Efren quickly caught on and soon he was spotting Freddy 10 to 8. Efren has said publicly and in print, that he learned the game of one pocket from Freddy and Incardona (who was also in Chicago at that time). And while we are on that subject..(keep in mind that this is just an assumption of what John Henderson might have meant by his original comment, and it is only him talking. Hopefully, this will defuse the "brag" policeman and allow him to just concentrate on his "thumb" sex with Jen. ).. Jose Parica and Luat were also in Chicago at the Billiard Cafe a good percentage of that time, and while not as often as Efren, played many sessions of onepocket and banks with the Beard in obvious attempts to pick up the moves in both games."

Now, JH, which meaning were you aiming at?

Beard

I am going to include this pic in all my posts. I may even change it to my avatar. I have decided to fight stupid and unreasonable, with stupid and unreasonable. Someone has resurrected all the things I thought we had put behind us, brag, liar, beat list, and aspersions cast by "unnamed" sources.

SJDinPHX said:

"

John,

I agree with all you've posted...I would just like to further add...I think, the main reason the Filipino's adapted so well, is that they competed with each other, on a regular basis so often.
They lacked the fear (think New York) that many American player's felt, about feeling "stupid" if they made a bad game , or lost a few $$$.
That fear has been instilled in our younger player's of today. From T-ball, all through college...It is drummed into their head, that winning is ALL there is. Gaining experience, by playing better player's...is secondary. It should be pointed out, that you HAVE to learn to lose, before you know how to win. Do you want to "hustle" pool, and look for the nuts, or do you want to become the best player you can be ?

Guy's like Efren, Parica, and Busty, were never saddled with those worries. They came to play, and winning was just a by-product....Very few American player's had that mindset...It was all about matching up good, and "looking" like winner !...JMHO

PS..John,....Please do not "over-gig" the Beard...In case you haven't noticed, he is already a little distraught..

Click to expand...

John and Dick:

Great points! The fact that they don't have a "Everybody must get a trophy" mentality for the kids is something I didn't consider. Also, the stigma of losing may be less important at least ealruy in their careers.

Thanks.

DeeMan

Directions: 41° 50′ 13″ N, 87° 41′ 4″ W

Directions: 41° 50′ 13″ N, 87° 41′ 4″ W

Chicago is right up there towards the top of Illinois. Easy to find by Greyhound, car or plane. Go there and put an end to the banter or it's hard not to conclude you don't want to end up on The List.

=fred bentivegna

Now, JH, which meaning were you aiming at?

Beard

I have decided to fight stupid and unreasonable, with stupid and unreasonable. Someone has resurrected all the things I thought we had put behind us, brag, liar, beat list, and aspersions cast by "unnamed" sources.

Click to expand...

Dear Steamed Chicago Lobster,

Lets assume that JH was not being sarcastic, and that the world should know that YOU and YOU alone are the reason for Efren's success at one pocket. Why do I feel, that were the timing not a little off, you would be claiming YOU, and YOU alone, were responsible for Eddie Taylor's success at Bank Pool, or Mosconi's success at straight pool... I am truely surprised you haven't tried anyway. It would be no more ludicrous than some of your other claims.

However, the "Steamed San Jose Lobster", shall continue to fight the evils of "stretching the truth", (to the absolute max) "bragging" and "beat listing" until some semblance of humility and common sense, overcomes your unbearable, mind boggling penchant for boasting. The members of the forum, are grateful for his vigilence.

It is not an easy task, as I know you will go to your grave, believing all the things you say about yourself, are the gospel truth, and should be beyond question. But there are times, (like all the time) when you BEG for the ridicule and doubt, that the Duck is ever alert to point out.

Brag Police Chief Duck (a volunteer, unpaid position)

SJDinPHX said:

Puhleeeeeeeeeeeze Ghosty....Its a little too late for you to try and play the "humble" card...

I allready know that spotting you twenty-some years, will not be a cakewalk,... I will have to count on you dogging it...(not a big stretch)...So give it a rest will ya !...This may be my last hurrah,...if you or Artie, (or both) beat me...I will get a job as a greeter at Walmart, and fade quietly into the sunset... (but I will still hang around to needle Fred, until they throw that last shovel full of dirt on me..

The Duck <---is still grasping for the 60's to re-surface...prolly ain't gonna happen..

PS..I will defer to John H. playing AB first, he has seniority...(plus... maybe he will weaken him)

Click to expand...

Ok, I've been meaning to address this extremely inaccurate age-card that you've been dealing to me for awhile now - you're off by 10 years or more - I'm in my 60's, not my 50's......I just look younger......

I'm sure you can do basic math...I was playing pool down in Bensingers' back when Freddy and Artie were playing there in the 60's...and some months back I posted up my hippie picture to show Clare...it was a pic taken of me at the house around the corner from Ye Billiard Den in L.A. where I was living at that time - it was taken in 1968 - 42 1/2 years ago - I'm of drinking age in the pic - do the math......I'm only slightly younger than Artie and Billy...

- Ghosty

PS, I needed to get that reality out there since I'm sure some members on here were thinking..."Oh that young, predatory, unscrupulous Ghost is taking advantage of poor old septuagenarian Papie".....

One Pocket Ghost said:

Ok, I've been meaning to address this extremely inaccurate age-card that you've been dealing to me for awhile now - you're off by 10 years or more - I'm in my 60's, not my 50's......I just look younger......

I'm sure you can do basic math...I was playing pool down in Bensingers' back when Freddy and Artie were playing there in the 60's...and some months back I posted up my hippie picture to show Clare...it was a pic taken of me at the house around the corner from Ye Billiard Den in L.A. where I was living at that time - it was taken in 1968 - 42 1/2 years ago - I'm of drinking age in the pic - do the math....I'm only slightly younger than Artie and Billy...

- Ghosty

PS, I needed to get that reality out there since I'm sure some members on here were thinking..."Oh that young, predatory, unscrupulous Ghost is taking advantage of poor old Papie".....

Click to expand...

Forgive me, Jasper. You looked like a 12 year old, pimply faced, sullen, rebelious kid in your "hippy" picture...How was I to know ?.

( it reminded me of a young Paul Reuben )...

One Pocket Ghost said:

PS, I needed to get that reality out there since I'm sure some members on here were thinking..."Oh that young, predatory, unscrupulous Ghost is taking advantage of poor old septuagenarian Papie".....

Click to expand...

Actually Ghosty, I was thinking "Oh that older, wiser, predatory, more unscrupulous Duck is about to take advantage of that poor, innocent, very nice & talented young Ghost".

Dennis

Cowboy Dennis said:

Actually Ghosty, I was thinking "Oh that older, wiser, predatory, more unscrupulous Duck is about to take advantage of that poor, innocent, very nice & talented young Ghost".

Dennis

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Dennis....I think you've got it right...

- Ghosty

PS, You weren't one of the members I was thinking of, when I said that in my last post...

Reality

Reality

SJDinPHX said:

Dear Steamed Chicago Lobster,

Lets assume that JH was not being sarcastic, and that the world should know that YOU and YOU alone are the reason for Efren's success at one pocket. Why do I feel, that were the timing not a little off, you would be claiming YOU, and YOU alone, were responsible for Eddie Taylor's success at Bank Pool, or Mosconi's success at straight pool... I am truely surprised you haven't tried anyway. It would be no more ludicrous than some of your other claims.

However, the "Steamed San Jose Lobster", shall continue to fight the evils of "stretching the truth", (to the absolute max) "bragging" and "beat listing" until some semblance of humility and common sense, overcomes your unbearable, mind boggling penchant for boasting. The members of the forum, are grateful for his vigilence.

It is not an easy task, as I know you will go to your grave, believing all the things you say about yourself, are the gospel truth, and should be beyond question. But there are times, (like all the time) when you BEG for the ridicule and doubt, that the Duck is ever alert to point out.

Brag Police Chief Duck (a volunteer, unpaid position)

Click to expand...

Dear Steamed Lobster "Dippy" Duck. I have promoted you to "Dippy" considering you are both certified claim artists.
Still looking for that $50 bet that you lost, the one you claimed you got past posted on. You said you were just joshing about that claim, but you were deadly serious about not paying. Now let's try reality, Efren out of his mouth in an interview in Pool and Billiard Mag said he learned 1pkt from Billy I and me. He has been the world champ for 20 years. That's reality, whether your jealous ass likes it or not. I spent 4 hrs with Jet Johnson and suddenly, at 53 years old, he is beating everybody in the country. I spent a few days with Jeannie Vogelsang and she won the state championship. You spent 4 days with
Appleton and he cant beat his meat playing one pocket. Plus, I know of other "students" of yours that werent too happy with their "training."

I have tried, and have managed to, help people to play better on this site. How about you? You have also pissed all over the stories and pool history that I try to provide, and would you believe it, many people are really interested in hearing. Can you point to anything you have contributed, to helping someone learn pool or onepocket? Anybody want to chime in here on his side? Please include the particular lesson so we can all benefit.

I believe some of the guys would like sometimes to ask a question or inquire further about a player, a time or an event, on a lot of the stories and events I relate, but they are reluctant to do so because you immediately chime in like a big drunken clod and smear the post.

I'd like to bet that some people would like to know more about Efren, Parica and Luat's time in Chicago when they first came over from the Phillipines. Can you enlighten them about such things? If not, why dont you take a sneak and leave my post's the f*ck alone?

Beard