Advice on this shot

How and whether to shoot it:

I was experimenting with this shot. Found a cb position and speed that gets close, but if (more like when..(most of the time)) missed, sells out cross over banks to opponent hole.

My trouble is the draw stroke speed that sends the front ball to my pocket, doesn't draw back to the end rail, leaving an easy bridge to deal with the missed shot(s).

Any advice? Change cb angle? change speed? All the above? Give up on the shot...not worth the risks?

thanks

note: lining up left edge of cb-front ball (straight on) alignment,to first diamond as a reference point.

sounds like you need to work on your draw stroke
use a stripe as the cue ball
place the stripe parrallel to the table bed
aim for the lowest part of the stripe
chalk well and see how close you hit
with a smooth stroke and loose grip you should be able to draw back to the rail
..................
the way you have the shot lined up
(edit i line up diamond cue ball to front ball in a straight line..p.s. not the conventional line up of 3-4 inches from center)
if you hit the 1 full and
if you draw straight back to the 1st diamond on the short rail (in line to where you are starting)
you should make the front ball
you shouldnt give up on the shot
practice it untill you can do it
since it comes up enough to have it as an option
jmho

In order to get maximum transfer of English to the object ball you will need strike it as full as possible. If your cue ball is going sideways after contact then you didn't deliver a full hit. If you hit it full then you should be able to draw the cue ball back to the short rail. For me it would be important to get the cue ball out of that are as to not leave a return bank on either of the two balls.
Doing this correctly and the object ball is going toward the long rail then you're positioning the cue ball with too much angle.
I normally will only select to play this shot if I'm the one that needs both.

Frank Almanza said:

In order to get maximum transfer of English to the object ball you will need strike it as full as possible. If your cue ball is going sideways after contact then you didn't deliver a full hit. If you hit it full then you should be able to draw the cue ball back to the short rail. For me it would be important to get the cue ball out of that are as to not leave a return bank on either of the two balls.
Doing this correctly and the object ball is going toward the long rail then you're positioning the cue ball with too much angle.
I normally will only select to play this shot if I'm the one that needs both.

Click to expand...

I'm not one to be giving advice, but it sounds like you're putting the CB where I do, unlike 3rail and LLL... 2 inches toward the center of the table from the position shown here.

Nick Varner said when he was commentating the New Orleans match a few weeks ago that he "ALWAYS" shoots the shot as he in most cases is better of either making the ball or leaving his opponent in a tougher place. "Good enough for me" !!!

I think you are placing the cue ball too far from the center in your diagram. I think if you were hitting hard enough for the lower ball to go two rails while forcing the upper one toward your hole, less angle is needed. In my opinion you want to be cutting the head ball very slightly to your right (assuming cue ball placed on the left of the spot like you drew it up), but where you have placed the cue ball I wonder if you are cutting it slightly the other way. If so, you would not be getting maximum throw if I am right (I might not be lol).

I think a consensus here is to shoot the shot from about 4" left of center.

that is conventional wisdom...

I remember them talking about, practicing and shooting that shot during the Johnson City event.

Yep, I place the CB on the headstring, one ball width to the right of halfway between the first and middle diamonds. I use a soft draw stroke which pulls the CB to the side rail just below the side pocket. The front ball usually goes or hangs up and the back ball usually goes two rails landing near my pocket. I've made them both several times, which I'm sure is not uncommon.

If the CB is a Red Circle I don't even try the shot. It's too light for my weak-a** stroke to execute the shot.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8Mhs5bW8eI[/ame]

The shot can be pocketed by placing the cue ball along the head string anywhere between the first diamond and the center spot. On many tables it is possible to make both balls on the one shot.

As the cue ball is placed closer to the head spot you will want to make your hit on the object ball slightly further off center. It is true that by placing the cue ball close to the head spot it is easier to drive the first ball further toward the foot rail, but then this angle also reduces your margin for error. Hit this shot a little too full from this position and the object balls may collide with one another. By shooting from a point directly between the first diamond on the head rail and the center of the head ball, you will provide yourself a clear target to aim at on the object ball. Now, just draw straight back toward your starting point.

As seen through Lenny's video, the shooter placed the cue ball very close to the head spot and drew the cue ball back almost into the corner pocket. If he had hit directly into the face of the first object ball the cue ball would have come directly back to its starting place and the object ball would have run to the foot rail. Using this angle, had he hit directly into the center of the object ball the two balls probably would have collided.

You are better off learning to draw your ball a little smoother and with a more relaxed stroke. Maybe part of your problem is that you have not learned just how low on the cue ball you can strike without miss cueing. Having a good tip on your cue also helps.

Tom

Surprisingly, you can even make the shot from the other side of the head spot according to the late Willie Jopling. I have seen Cliff Joyner play it this way. Willie described it and I diagrammed it here:
http://www.onepocket.org/JoplingDiagram3.htm

Thanks everybody.

Fun shot that I need to work on more. I'm hitting it too weak for both balls to go.

Gotta figure out the beginning cb position, for my stroke, to give both balls a chance and draw cb back to short head rail.

Thank you all for the advice and suggestions...it's on me now.


ps: love these 'wacky shots'

There is a good way to improve on your draw stroke. I learned this technique years ago. Place an object ball on the foot spot and position the cue ball equal distance between the OB and the foot rail, but on a slight angle to the head rail.

Now make a full hit on the OB and try to draw the cue ball back to the foot rail without allowing the OB to bank off the head rail and back to the foot rail and touching it.

A clue; if you never miscue you have not hit low enough on the cue ball. How will you ever know how low you can strike if you never exceed the limits.
If you never accomplish this task, don't worry about it. The point of the exercise is all about the experience.

tom

3RAILKICK said:

Thanks everybody.
ps: love these 'wacky shots'

Click to expand...

Here's a fun one to try (if you don't already know it). The diagram, of course, is not exact. Different tables will play it different ways. But this is a general starting point. Have fun with this one!

<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4AALW4OALn1PQkU4UALW3UcVu4UdFJ3UcIr3Ucht3UdOr4jALn3jHYv2jPQv3jcIr1kQkU4kAsR4kRMr1kceA1kUnk1kUno2uCUO@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

1andDone said:

Here's a fun one to try (if you don't already know it). The diagram, of course, is not exact. Different tables will play it different ways. But this is a general starting point. Have fun with this one!

<iframe src="http://CueTable.com/P/Player/?@4AALW4OALn1PQkU4UALW3UcVu4UdFJ3UcIr3Ucht3UdOr4jALn3jHYv2jPQv3jcIr1kQkU4kAsR4kRMr1kceA1kUnk1kUno2uCUO@" noresize="noresize" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0" frameborder="no" width="600" height="400" ></iframe>

Click to expand...

Aha,
The Emperors New Clothes!