One of the weirdest games I've ever seen tonight

CaliRed · Apr 28, 2012

Update: If you're up right now.. they're getting ready to play the championship at Mountain View CA. www.ustream.tv/channel/ontherail
Francisco and John playing for 3 grand shortly. Still time to watch it!

It's John Schmidt and Scott Frost playing for 3rd place, to see who plays for the championship against Busty. It's 2-2, so they're hill-hill. Final game, and quickly all the balls somehow end up below the rack. From there the weirdness goes out the window.

John starts playing 3 rail kicks to put Scott behind his balls. Scott starts playing reverse english kicks to put John behind his balls. Pretty soon, it's Scott owes 9 balls and John owes 2 or 3. Eventually John gets a few, then Scott gets a chance to run some balls and dogs a easy shot. Before they played 4 games in about 40 mins, this game has went on close to over a hour. There's 3 balls on the table now. Sorry for the qualilty.. trying to hurry

Craziness

EDIT: John just won, Scott made about 15 or so balls of the 17 he owed

Here's a few screen shots

After the match, John made this shot 3 times in a row.. pretty sweet, pocket speed too. Up and down, up and down

Scrzbill · Apr 28, 2012

I was doing the commentary with Jeff Gregory and we lost track of how many coins Scott had up. He made up the nine and except for a small brush on the four during a run, he would have run out for the win. We timed the first four games, first one 12 minutes, second four, third 14, fourth16 and then the all the balls on the bottom rail final. We give the actual times on the stream but I'm close with the time.:lol:lol

Miller · Apr 28, 2012

thanks for posting those shots greg.

that five-railer is definitely going into my notebook....

iusedtoberich · Apr 28, 2012

I started watching this game when the position was like shown in the picture above. I was I believe -7 to -2 at that time. I don't know what they did to get into that position... Both players were still kicking 2 to 5 rails to get the cue ball safe. I have a statement/question:

Neither player had an offensive postion. So what was the point in trying to keep hiding the cue ball on the other side of the "flat stack"?

I understand when both players or even one has an offensive position, this type of kick is crucial, as the first to leave a shot will end up deep in the hole. But in this position, either player could have left the cue ball in the center of the table I feel without much penalty. So why go for these tricky shots? Wouldn't another and perhaps better option be to skim the "flat stack" and send the cue ball to the brunswick on the head rail up table?

Thoughts?

One Pocket Ghost · Apr 29, 2012

iusedtoberich said:
I started watching this game when the position was like shown in the picture above. I was I believe -7 to -2 at that time. I don't know what they did to get into that position... Both players were still kicking 2 to 5 rails to get the cue ball safe. I have a statement/question:

Neither player had an offensive postion. So what was the point in trying to keep hiding the cue ball on the other side of the "flat stack"?

I understand when both players or even one has an offensive position, this type of kick is crucial, as the first to leave a shot will end up deep in the hole. But in this position, either player could have left the cue ball in the center of the table I feel without much penalty. So why go for these tricky shots? Wouldn't another and perhaps better option be to skim the "flat stack" and send the cue ball to the brunswick on the head rail up table?

Thoughts?

The reason that they (and I would do the same) were endeavoring to keep leaving the other guy snookered on the side of the stack rather then leaving them out in the open, was so that their opponent couldn't put them in a trap by kicking off of the long rail and then into that flat stack along the foot rail, sending a ball, or two, or three to end up in front of their pocket and leaving the cueball snookered on the other side of the stack...

And also by leaving your opponent snookered against the pack....#1. You are leaving him 0 offensive shots/opportunity to turn the situation to his favor in any way, and, #2. Since he's shooting from a very limited and uncomfortable position, there's a decent chance that he will make an error of some kind with his shot, thus leaving you with a good shot of some kind.

- Ghost

Miller · Apr 29, 2012

cartoon or real?

cartoon or real?

mr3cushion/rod/lou/luke/fred/drbill/1ph/henderson/sjd/almanza/et. al.....

ok, my pc went tits up and i can't figure out how to post the pic on my wife's mac....

it's the second shot greg posted, the five rail safety.

anybody care to share how you go about doing that without killing it? :frus

SJDinPHX · Apr 29, 2012

Miller said:
mr3cushion/rod/lou/luke/fred/drbill/1ph/henderson/sjd/almanza/et. al.....

ok, my pc went tits up and i can't figure out how to post the pic on my wife's mac....

it's the second shot greg posted, the five rail safety.

anybody care to share how you go about doing that without killing it? :frus

Miller,

The second shot (picture) in Greg's post #1, is really quite easily executed. If you try it on any table yourself, you will find that loading the cue ball up, with extreme R.H. side English, shooting into the the first rail (at the proper angle)...upon contacting the second rail, the cue ball then takes on running english, and will travel pretty much as Greg outlined it. The way the balls laid, John had a fairly safe margin for error, with speed and direction..He just happened to do both optimum...Good shot to know !...Try it, you'll like it..

lll · Apr 29, 2012

SJDinPHX said:
Miller,

The second shot (picture) in Greg's post #1, is really quite easily executed. If you try it on any table yourself, you will find that loading the cue ball up, with extreme R.H. side English, shooting into the the first rail (at the proper angle)...upon contacting the second rail, the cue ball then takes on running english, and will travel pretty much as Greg outlined it. The way the balls laid, John had a fairly safe margin for error, with speed and direction..He just happened to do both optimum...Good shot to know !...Try it, you'll like it..

i sometimes have trouble having the right hand english still there when the cue ball hits the second rail.....

.......

been awhile since ive tried it and my stroke is better now...

tylerdurden · Apr 29, 2012

lll said:
i sometimes have trouble having the right hand english still there when the cue ball hits the second rail...................
been awhile since ive tried it and my stroke is better now...

That isn't a shot that will work on every table. If the rails have old worn sticky wet cloth there can be no right spin after that first rail (which can get you there firm enough), or even left if they are sticky enough. I feel that shot works best on new cloth.

wincardona · Apr 29, 2012

SJDinPHX said:
Miller,

The second shot (picture) in Greg's post #1, is really quite easily executed. If you try it on any table yourself, you will find that loading the cue ball up, with extreme R.H. side English, shooting into the the first rail (at the proper angle)...upon contacting the second rail, the cue ball then takes on running english, and will travel pretty much as Greg outlined it. The way the balls laid, John had a fairly safe margin for error, with speed and direction..He just happened to do both optimum...Good shot to know !...Try it, you'll like it..

Depending on the angle you shoot into off the first rail will determine where you should strike the cue ball; low axis, center axis, top axis. Be careful not to use top axis spin when the shot requires center axis spin, big difference in how the ball reacts coming off the first rail. With the angle that Scott has in diagram #2, center R.H. spin controlled the cue ball off the first rail and shortened it up, which created the ideal angle off the second rail to feel comfortable with the direction and speed needed for this particular shot. Like Dick say's experiment with this shot using different speeds and angles off the first rail, and adjust your hit with the top, center, and low axis on the cue ball to develop a feel for what type of hit the angle suggest.

Dr. Bill

CaliRed · Apr 29, 2012

I just threw those drawings up quick so they aren't all that accurate probably. Scott was the one shooting the reverse English 5 railers...john was shooting the standard 3 railers. I think it all started because john was able to leak out a ball by his pocket so he was putting Scott behind the pack to put the pressure on. Scott was shooting that shot to either kick that leaked ball out or to come underneath it. At some point I don't think either one of them had a open ball so that's what made it even weirder.

That reverse English shot is also used a lot when cutting a ball in and being able to travel around the table to get back down where you started from.

That game is archived so go to Lenny's upstream page if you want to watch it.

(Sent from my mobile-Which means I won't yap much

)

Jimmy B · Apr 29, 2012

CaliRed said:
I just threw those drawings up quick so they aren't all that accurate probably. Scott was the one shooting the reverse English 5 railers...john was shooting the standard 3 railers. I think it all started because john was able to leak out a ball by his pocket so he was putting Scott behind the pack to put the pressure on. Scott was shooting that shot to either kick that leaked ball out or to come underneath it. At some point I don't think either one of them had a open ball so that's what made it even weirder.

That reverse English shot is also used a lot when cutting a ball in and being able to travel around the table to get back down where you started from.

That game is archived so go to Lenny's upstream page if you want to watch it.

(Sent from my mobile-Which means I won't yap much )

I think it is pretty accurate Greg. I use to have trouble doing the reverse shot when cutting the ball in and going around. Buddy Hall could do it and make it look so effortless. Dr. Bill and Grady could sure do it also. That was a great match though. Later I was watching Mr. Henderson and Scott. Another great match. Glad I stayed up for that one. Also glad to see Busty come back and stick it up their ass after being ****ed over on the three fouls that Corey committed and got shuman to rule for him on. Great job. I hope he takes the ten ball also.............

jrhendy · Apr 29, 2012

Jimmy B said:
I think it is pretty accurate Greg. I use to have trouble doing the reverse shot when cutting the ball in and going around. Buddy Hall could do it and make it look so effortless. Dr. Bill and Grady could sure do it also. That was a great match though. Later I was watching Mr. Henderson and Scott. Another great match. Glad I stayed up for that one. Also glad to see Busty come back and stick it up their ass after being ****ed over on the three fouls that Corey committed and got shuman to rule for him on. Great job. I hope he takes the ten ball also.............

Looks like he will win them both the way he has been playing. He plays for the hot seat against Raj Hundal in a couple hours. He is strapping racks together and looks unbeatable to me.

Last night/this morning, Schmidt was giving 10/6 to a pretty good local player and at one point took 6/7 fouls and then they pushed all the balls up table in the corner.

Too boring to watch so I went to bed.

Other than a few errors against Scott, which I am always going to have, I played well. Hard To fade all that firepower and when the top players like Scott and Schmidt take a couple scratches and make you take a couple, you are now playing 12/7, a better game for the guy giving the weight. Bucktooth pointed that out to me when I lost at the same game in Reno.

Still had to try it one more time LOL. It sounds so good on paper.

TWO PICKS · Apr 29, 2012

I hope that Busti does not win. Would like a u.s. player to win.

SJDinPHX · Apr 29, 2012

tylerdurden said:
That isn't a shot that will work on every table. If the rails have old worn sticky wet cloth there can be no right spin after that first rail (which can get you there firm enough), or even left if they are sticky enough. I feel that shot works best on new cloth.

Sorry Tyler...It WILL work on ANY table..Only the angle going into the first rail changes. In Gregs diagram, he has the angle pretty short.. I would prefer hitting the first rail, a little closer to the side pocket, for the desired 3 railer, coming off the second rail.

Like Billy says, you can maintain a center axis. I just prefer extreme side english, cause I feel I can control the shot better. It is a lttle tougher to control on a REALLY wet table, but still very doable.. Give me a few shot warm-up, I could bet I could hit an opponents ball in the pocket, (if thats my goal) after coming off the second rail..You skeptics need to shoot it a few times, it is not all that tough to execute..

Miller · Apr 29, 2012

thanks for sharing that sjd (and dr. bill).

it's one of those that you immediately know if you hit it good. the cue ball sure "takes off" that third rail when properly executed. it's definitely something that you need to practice and develop, but i'm not afraid to admit i was completely clueless how to make work until explained.

lll · Apr 29, 2012

i tried it today
there is ALOT of spin that gets killed off the first rail (for me at least)
but enought to keep it going where it has to go

RobertDuke · Apr 29, 2012

I can not find that match in the ontherailtv.com archives can somebody find it and post it.. I really would enjoy watching that match..

Scrzbill · Apr 29, 2012

RobertDuke said:
I can not find that match in the ontherailtv.com archives can somebody find it and post it.. I really would enjoy watching that match..

Give Lenny a few days to get all the action together. He is doing the nine ball stream also and it is a packed house. It is elbow to elbow player. Last night there was action well into day light. Todays the finals of the 10 ball. :lol

RobertDuke · Apr 29, 2012

Scrzbill said:
Give Lenny a few days to get all the action together. He is doing the nine ball stream also and it is a packed house. It is elbow to elbow player. Last night there was action well into day light. Todays the finals of the 10 ball. :lol

I just sent you a pm.. Thanks for the quick reply..

One of the weirdest games I've ever seen tonight

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