Country Interview August 2013
Country Interview August 2013
I interviewed Country for about three hours in August 2013, over lunch in South Orange, New Jersey.
Country lives in nearby West Orange, New Jersey, and was driven to the restaurant by our mutual friend, Kevin.
Country speaks very softly and with a deep southern/country accent, which sometimes made it difficult for me to understand.
His conversation jumped around regarding players, places and dates.
Therefore, several times during this interview I had to ask him to clarify names and/or the chronology.
Occasionally, I had to ask him to repeat and/or to clarify his statements because I couldn’t be sure that I understood every word clearly.
There may be facts and dates here that are not 100% accurate because I have no way to verify exactly what Country said during this interview. I will mention, however, that most other players and pool experts agree that Country was not the sort of person who fabricated stories. Therefore, I accept, to large degree, everything that follows.
I took notes because Country did not want me to record his voice.
Before Country agreed to have lunch and be interviewed, he told his friend Kevin that I would not be allowed to take his picture at any time. This is something that I already knew about Country…he never wanted anyone to take his picture because he thought that it would “kill his action”. Today, even as he approaches the age of 85, he refuses to have his photo taken.
Since this interview in August of 2013, Country has become very weak and I think that now it would be almost impossible to get any more useful information directly from him, regarding his history in the world of pool and gambling.
These are my edited notes from that interview:
His real name: Charles Curtis Martin
Date of Birth: Born November 18, 1928
Place of Birth: Roanoke (Bloomfield) Virginia
Quote: "I always took care of myself"
Physical description: Light-skinned African-American, well dressed.
He almost always wore a hat and dress shoes. He preferred long leather coats to cloth coats because “leather doesn’t wear out as fast”.
Height: approx. 6’ 1”
He estimated his playing weight at 220 pounds.
His family moved to NYC (uptown Manhattan) during the Great Depression, before WW ll. He couldn’t recall the street. He quit school very early, before high school.
He started playing pool in a small poolroom on 116th Street, run by a Spanish guy (he couldn’t recall his name), who let the teenage Charles rack the balls and play for free. He liked the clicking sounds of the balls and watched the men gamble.
Charles watched and learned to play and gamble from the Spanish guy and other regulars. He studied pool and the players, so he knew their strengths and weaknesses. When a man got drunk and foolish with his money, Country took careful note of this, possibly to exploit this weakness in the future.
He got the name Country because of the way he talks and the quiet manner in which he carried himself, obviously not a native New Yorker.
Country was always quiet, observing and learning. He never wanted to draw attention to himself or be the center of attention. But he stood up when he felt that he was in the right and did not back down out of fear.
He “underplayed” his experience and knowledge, using his mild mannered ways to get the edge when gambling.
He always liked to gamble, and never played for fun.
He first met James Evans in a pool hall on 125th Street in Harlem. Country became close to Mr. Evans and tried to model himself after his idol.
Country knew James Evans very well, but never called him “James” or “Evans”. He always referred to him as “Mr. Evans” or “James Evans”, even to this day. He said that James Evans was the best player, gambler and gentleman that he ever saw. He learned a lot from James Evans, especially about game-making and how to “protect yourself at all times”.
There was another action room on 119th Street in Harlem where Country played, but he couldn’t remember the name of that room. Country played with a Willie Hoppe cue. He had his shafts made in NYC by a cue maker whose name he could not remember. He wouldn’t pay for an expensive Balabushka, Szamboti, or Rambow. He didn’t think that the cue made much of a difference, “as long as it’s straight and it feels good.” A close friend of Country, Tony, had a special cue made for Country and presented it to him as a gift. Country never really accepted it and never hit a ball with it.
Country beat Mizerak at one pocket. Mizerak had to play two and safe.
Country got 10-8 from Jersey Red and beat him on a 9 foot table.
Country would not play the same game with Red on a 10 footer because he said that Red was the best One Pocket in the world on a 10 footer.
Weenie Beenie told me the same thing.
Country beat Weenie Beenie getting 9-7 and then he beat Beenie even up.
Country was a well-respected 3-cushion player and one of the very few African-Americans who played 3-cushion billiards for money.
Country thought Blood, Jersey Red, Weenie Beenie, Mizerak, Colavita, James Evans, Jimmy Fusco, Miami, Danny Gartner, Boston Shorty, Cornbread Red, Incardona, and Eddie Taylor were good guys.
He particularly worshipped James Evans.
He saw Evans run back- to- back 150's gambling against Jimmy Caras.
Country “hated” (his words) Mosconi and Ray Martin because “they wouldn't gamble”.
Country frequented the infamous Paddy's 7-11 on Seventh Avenue, upstairs from the Metropole Café. This was when I first saw Country, back in 1961. He was wearing a long brown leather coat and a stylish brimmed hat with a feather in the band. He was standing next to Blood and Slim. They were all trying to make a game with a loud pimp, who was shooting balls by himself and barking at everyone .
Country knew all the NYC players and hustlers in the 1940's through the 1990's.
Some people say that Country won over $500K at The Rack in Detroit. Railbirds liked to bet on Country because he never dumped and always made a good game. Country saw Jew Paul play one game with some guy (a numbers man, Jones?) for $100k at The Rack in Detroit. Country won over $100K in one day from Jew Paul at The Rack in Detroit.
Billy Incardona said that there may have been another $200K bet by the railbirds on Country.
Country bought a new Cadillac for about $5000 cash with some of his winnings.
Country was extremely generous and gave away money, no strings attached, to people he liked and respected.
Years later, he paid cash for his home in West Orange, which he lives in today.
Rockaway Abe gave Country jewelry to sell on consignment to other pool players. Country sold the jewelry and made “good money”.
He said pool players like gold because “it always has value”.
Rockaway Abe lost hundreds, if not thousands, almost every time playing Jersey Red, Brooklyn Jimmy, Richie From the Bronx, Boston Shorty, Deano, Johnny Ervolino, etc. at Paddy’s 7-11 in NYC. Rockaway Abe liked action and he loved playing the top NYC hustlers. But they always robbed him, giving him games that he couldn’t win….locking him up. Abe’s wife would sometimes watch these gambling sessions. She was one of the only women who stayed in the 7-11 late at night, sometimes until the early morning. Paddy’s 7-11 was open 24 hours a day. It was filled with every type of hustler and NYC character. (Note: I personally saw some of these all-night sessions in the early 1960’s but I never photographed them. I wish I had.)
Country can't understand why pool players gamble in Casinos and lose all their hard- earned money. He never gambled in casinos. But he liked Blackjack (21)
and gambled with Mizerak. They played Blackjack with The Miz as the Bank and Country had to beat 17. He beat Mizerak out of $500 before The Miz quit.
He said Hopkins and some other guys might "do business" and said Hopkins always had an uncanny edge even when he ran a card game in his poolroom. Country thought Hopkins was probably cheating at cards because he always came out ahead. Nevertheless, Country likes and respects Hopkins.
He has no respect for pool players who won’t gamble for a decent amount of money.
He has no interest in watching the greatest pool players shoot for fun or in tournaments, even World Tournaments. He has no interest in seeing a pool tournament, even to this day. He’s only interested in action matches. If Mosconi was playing Crane in a tournament, Country would rather watch two shortstops on the next table playing 9-Ball for $20 a game.
Country sometimes bet on Minnesota Fats when Fats made a good game and he won a lot of money betting on Fats. Fats never asked Country for a commission on his winnings, which Country took as sign of respect.
Country also respected Fats, but they never played each other. Country said that “Fats was too smart to give me a game”.
Country watched Strawberry play Squirrel one-pocket for six hours and they broke even. I asked Squirrel about this and he said that Strawberry never beat him for any money, ever. Squirrel remembered him, but did not ever recall playing Country.
Country never played Ronnie Allen or Eddie Taylor or Lassiter. They wouldn’t give him the weight that he wanted.
Mostly, Country avoided top players. He picked his spots and almost always won the cash. He may have lost a game or a set, but eventually Country won the cash. (This fact has been confirmed to me by Incardona and Jimmy Fusco).
Country can't stand cheap players, players who dump, players who always need backers, players who quit without a good reason, players who cheat and cheaters who can't play. He would not allow a player to owe him money, nor would he ever ask to play without having the stakes posted in advance if he didn’t know or trust his opponent. If he lost, Country would ask for a rematch and try to get more weight or change the game in some way to gain an advantage, but he never cried when he lost. He preferred to gamble on each game, not sets.
James Evans was already past his prime when the color barrier in World Professional Pool and Billiards Tournaments was broken in 1964. He and Country advised Cisero not to play in any tournaments because it would kill Cisero’s action. But the fans urged Cisero to enter the World’s Tournament in California in 1965, which he won. After that victory, Cisero found it difficult to win money in action games. Country never played in any tournaments or exhibitions or for fun. Country knew Strawberry and Bugs very well. Blood was his closest friend after James Evans. He said Blood was a good gambler with a lot of heart, but he took too many chances gambling. He said that Blood sometimes gave up too much weight because he wanted the action so much. He likes and respects Jimmy Fusco, but not Pete Fusco. (No explanation given. Edit: I have since been informed by a close associate that Pete Fusco somehow disrespected Country and they never patched up their differences.)
Country said Pots and Pans (Bernie Rogoff) made a lot of money selling and hustling.
Country liked his style and when I told him that Pots and Pans had just died a couple of months before, he said that he didn't know about it.
Country traveled to wherever he could get good action. Country has never held a regular paying job.
During our 3-hour lunch date, Country ate a corned beef sandwich on rye and a huge order of French fries. Then he ordered pie-a-la-mode for dessert. Kevin mentioned something about him having to watch his weight because he was putting on the pounds. Country smiled, ate with gusto and cleaned off his plate.
After lunch, I drove with Country and Kevin back to Country’s house in West Orange. It was a beautiful summer afternoon, so we sat on the back porch. When Country tried to stand up, he collapsed onto the pavement. Kevin and I had a hard time lifting him up off the ground (his weight was probably around 250 pounds) and helping him to lie down. After we were sure that he was OK, I said my goodbye and left. I called Kevin a few hours later and he said Country had “overdone it”, but was now resting comfortably.
I saw Country many times after that at Sandcastle Billiards, and twice at Elite Billiards, but he was never able to add any more useful information to what I already had written. As time went on, it became almost impossible for me to carry on any kind of meaningful conversation with Country, as he slowly slipped away. I’m sure that others can add more information and tell a more complete story.
At Sandcastle Billiards in June 2016, Country sat and spoke with Billy Incardona and Jimmy Fusco. I have a couple of photos that I shot from across the room. Out of respect to Country, I have never published or shared these photos with anyone. Now that Jimmy Fusco and Country are both gone, I’m wondering if I should?
RIP…Country died the day after Christmas 2017 at the age of 89.
Country asked me if I played 9ball for money I answered how much? He said $2 a game, OK I'll play. He said that he didn't play but his friend did. So Cicero and I played, we played all night about six hours going back and forth and the room closed at 12:00, we were even.
