Ghost vs. Tom #2

[cincy_kid]

nice shot jimmy
i looked first at using the 7 to get the cue ball to the same place was afraif of disturbing the 3/8
but your way no risk of disturbing the 3/8

If you cut the 11 enough to bring the cb to the long rail, it cuts the 2 right into the 8 3 doesn't it?

 

[lll]

If you cut the 11 enough to bring the cb to the long rail, it cuts the 2 right into the 8 3 doesn't it?

i dont think so chris
but it could be we see it different or you would have to be at the table
if you look at jimmy"s diagram the might hit lower on that rail but i dont think it hite the 3/8
jmho

 

[JPB2]

No brainer for me, I'm kicking at the 3 -8. Hit the high side of the 3 sending the 3 in the direction of the 15 and there it caroms towards the 1 and 5. The 8 safely goes up table and does the cue ball. There is nothing for my opponent from that end of the table. This should be an easy kick for anyone with even limited experience. Very easy to get luck and scrape something in your hole. Position is then natural.

Tom

I set this one up and practiced it some last night. Great option. It was not hard to execute and worked great.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Thank you JPB2 for setting it up and trying it out. I also want to thank you for posting your results here.
I didn't try it but my years of experience told me the shot would be easy to execute and the results would be as you have described. When an offense shot presents itself and has high expectations with minimal risk well, it's time to go! Defense does not win games. Defense simply helps to keep you in the game until a viable offensive shot comes along. You can never count on your opponent making the last mistake.​

Tom

 

[Island Drive]

Thank you JPB2 for setting it up and trying it out. I also want to thank you for posting your results here.
I didn't try it but my years of experience told me the shot would be easy to execute and the results would be as you have described. When an offense shot presents itself and has high expectations with minimal risk well, it's time to go! Defense does not win games. Defense simply helps to keep you in the game until a viable offensive shot comes along. You can never count on your opponent making the last mistake.
Tom

Tom your shot, gives great ball separation & cue ball distance from the table foot.
thx

 

[JPB2]

Thank you JPB2 for setting it up and trying it out. I also want to thank you for posting your results here.
I didn't try it but my years of experience told me the shot would be easy to execute and the results would be as you have described. When an offense shot presents itself and has high expectations with minimal risk well, it's time to go! Defense does not win games. Defense simply helps to keep you in the game until a viable offensive shot comes along. You can never count on your opponent making the last mistake.
Tom

No, thank you. In looking at the pictures before reading answers, that kick was “invisible” to me. Never registered. I could have looked at that situation forever and not seen it. Maybe I haven’t studied your book enough.

 

[catkins]

I am really likeing rolling through the 3 to freeze on the 8. the obvious laying under the 12 10 has one issue for me it I to many times have had people stuck there and shoot a firm center ball shot on the 15 to move the 5 and the 1 and watch all three balls go away

 

[catkins]

Thank you JPB2 for setting it up and trying it out. I also want to thank you for posting your results here.
I didn't try it but my years of experience told me the shot would be easy to execute and the results would be as you have described. When an offense shot presents itself and has high expectations with minimal risk well, it's time to go! Defense does not win games. Defense simply helps to keep you in the game until a viable offensive shot comes along. You can never count on your opponent making the last mistake.
Tom

I really agree and disagree with this satement. Obviously offense winns the game but if offence lets your opponent out of a trap because you did nto play a good cue ball than that will lose sets. Two things can apply pressure to your opponent to push them to break, stellar offense and steller defence and I do not think either should be underestimated.

 

[Island Drive]

So Tom, which is the second best thread choice?

 

[gulfportdoc]

I know I would be looking real intently at shooting nearly straight into the 10-ball, leaving the cue ball hooked behind the 15. The 10 & 12 are nicely angled to send the 12 to my side rail above my pocket so I have a "ball up and ball down", and the 10-ball clears. As I see it in the first photo, Ghost can see the entire 10-ball and with the cue ball easy to control from that short distance (plus it is off the rail plenty to get a good stun stroke).

I really like that shot because I'd be looking to put a ball on my long rail, as you say: to have a ball up and a ball down.

And with the CB now buried behind the 15ball, there's really very little that the opponent can do. He's in deep jeopardy.

I never knew you were that nasty, Steve...

 

[Tom Wirth]

Catkins says;
I really agree and disagree with this satement. Obviously offense winns the game but if offence lets your opponent out of a trap because you did nto play a good cue ball than that will lose sets. Two things can apply pressure to your opponent to push them to break, stellar offense and steller defence and I do not think either should be underestimated.

Catkins, In football, defense can win games. In Baseball and pool only offense can win a game. Defense simply makes it easier to win because less offense may become necessary. One Pocket requires 8 balls to be pocketed into your pocket before the other guy does the same. That requires offense! As you aptly pointed out, pressure becomes a key element. But until a player realizes his opponent is willing to shoot at his hole all the defense in the world will not create the kind of pressure you're seeking to "break" a strong opponent.
Sure, the more aggressive the play, typically the higher the risk factor, so discretion must be a part of each player's strategy. The greater the skill set the more offensive power that player has at their disposal. Imagination plays a large role in a player's strategy. Someone here suggested they probably would never have seen the shot I suggested. Well, maybe that's true and maybe if he took more time to consider the options, he may have seen the shot. That doesn't mean he should shoot it. If he is unfamiliar with how to execute a shot like this he would probably be better off finding another solution. This brings me back to the title of my book; "Controlled Aggression". Whether playing defense or offense the idea should always be to exact the most damage to your opponent's position as possible. This is what is meant by aggression. Wouldn't you think if one shot is superior to another it would be best to have the skills to play the superior shot? These skills include the use of a fertile imagination.

More to come if you're interested? I'm sure Ghost can contribute much to this discussion. He's sharp!

Tom​

 

[OldSchool]

Simple, but the cue ball travel for me, I would likely scratch coming off the 8 in the upper pocket.

Yes, possible scratch in the corner. The other concern with the choice of kicking the 3-8, is that the 8ball and cueball are both heading to the same area and you could end up leaving your opponent a good shot on that 8ball.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Bill says;
So Tom, which is the second best thread choice?

Biil, I got in the habit many years ago when there are options to be considered it is best to find 3. Starting with the most aggressive and working myself down to the most aggressive defensive shot in my arsenal. The shot I chose in this case was high on the list right from the start. That said second choice, hum? I have to look back at the various posts. Just a minute please......In reviewing the posts I could critique a few of them but I will refrain from doing so and just say Jimmy B's shot of driving the 11 off the 2 one rail and back towards your pocket has merit. The shot is not easy to execute but it doesn't carry that much risk, and it does have the means to be very effective.
Bill, If you want to debate your suggestion we can.
Tom​

 

[crabbcatjohn]

I like 2 rail kick out of the corner, trying to kick the 9 at my pocket. Cb comes down the long rail. Safe since the 83 doesn't go and I'll prolly have some blockers.

If I was playing for more I would just shoot off the left side of 3 and bring cb under 12 10.

I don't like Jimmy shot because the 11 will cut the 2 over and hit the 83 and who knows where they go. Can't bring cb under 10 12 from that angle.. or at least that's the way I see it.

Thats why I like Jimmy's shot, it don't hit the 8-3...

 

[cincy_kid]

Thats why I like Jimmy's shot, it don't hit the 8-3...

Yea I see on the one pic looking on my PC (and not my phone), it cant hit the 8/3 due to the angle its froze on top the 7, so good shot!

 

[crabbcatjohn]

The funny thing is I thought about coming off the 7 but I nixed it because It would hit the 8-3. I didn't see coming off the 11 until he posted it...lol

 

[Island Drive]

Bill says;
So Tom, which is the second best thread choice?

Biil, I got in the habit many years ago when there are options to be considered it is best to find 3. Starting with the most aggressive and working myself down to the most aggressive defensive shot in my arsenal. The shot I chose in this case was high on the list right from the start. That said second choice, hum? I have to look back at the various posts. Just a minute please......In reviewing the posts I could critique a few of them but I will refrain from doing so and just say Jimmy B's shot of driving the 11 off the 2 one rail and back towards your pocket has merit. The shot is not easy to execute but it doesn't carry that much risk, and it does have the means to be very effective.
Bill, If you want to debate your suggestion we can.
Tom

Not at all, I never play the game where I'm at, it's all bar table cept in my back yard, and no one in Fremont county enjoys the 9' struggle.
I enjoy seening/processing others perspectives.
Now if it was a ten-ball game, I'm able to spot the top players shooting the wrong shots quite often.
I grew up playing 2 shot shoot out 9 ball.
I learned long ago, knowing my opponent's strengths/weaknesses via shots and shot choices told me quickly, if Iike the game at hand. and if I've got the best of it.

Find three, good perspective to then make your decision.
Similar to my thinking when I get off angle but still choose to pocket the ball I played position for.

A comment I heard awhile back that stuck.... Chicago Arties game.... his main concern, was his opponents return shot choices after he parked whitey.
bm

 

[catkins]

Catkins says;
I really agree and disagree with this satement. Obviously offense winns the game but if offence lets your opponent out of a trap because you did nto play a good cue ball than that will lose sets. Two things can apply pressure to your opponent to push them to break, stellar offense and steller defence and I do not think either should be underestimated.

Catkins, In football, defense can win games. In Baseball and pool only offense can win a game. Defense simply makes it easier to win because less offense may become necessary. One Pocket requires 8 balls to be pocketed into your pocket before the other guy does the same. That requires offense! As you aptly pointed out, pressure becomes a key element. But until a player realizes his opponent is willing to shoot at his hole all the defense in the world will not create the kind of pressure you're seeking to "break" a strong opponent.
Sure, the more aggressive the play, typically the higher the risk factor, so discretion must be a part of each player's strategy. The greater the skill set the more offensive power that player has at their disposal. Imagination plays a large role in a player's strategy. Someone here suggested they probably would never have seen the shot I suggested. Well, maybe that's true and maybe if he took more time to consider the options, he may have seen the shot. That doesn't mean he should shoot it. If he is unfamiliar with how to execute a shot like this he would probably be better off finding another solution. This brings me back to the title of my book; "Controlled Aggression". Whether playing defense or offense the idea should always be to exact the most damage to your opponent's position as possible. This is what is meant by aggression. Wouldn't you think if one shot is superior to another it would be best to have the skills to play the superior shot? These skills include the use of a fertile imagination.

More to come if you're interested? I'm sure Ghost can contribute much to this discussion. He's sharp!

Tom

Like I said I both agree and disagree. Your responce I just about entirly agree with. I have absoulutly shot shots which where the wrong shot because I thought I needed to hit a guy in the face a bit to make him more cautious. My main point is that obviously once you weigh all the options and you have an offensive shot that will get the job done and protect your position it is the shot, However if yoru offensive shot has a cue ball that does not sell out a shot but allows opponent either an easy out or a clearance shot it becomes Much more a flyer than is worth it for me.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Deleted.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Deleted