another rules question

poolandpokerman · Feb 11, 2015

I have a ball hanging in my pocket. My opponent intentionaly double hits the q ball and makes my ball and leaves the q ball hanging in my pocket. Looks like a brilliant move, however is this shot legal. Also how do you prove it was intentionaly done. Does he spot the ball and one of his?Thanks for your advice.

Tom Harris

petie · Feb 11, 2015

poolandpokerman said:
I have a ball hanging in my pocket. My opponent intentionaly double hits the q ball and makes my ball and leaves the q ball hanging in my pocket. Looks like a brilliant move, however is this shot legal. Also how do you prove it was intentionaly done. Does he spot the ball and one of his?Thanks for your advice.

Tom Harris

I don't know if these rules have found their way to the rule books but the One Pocket players of long ago decided that you cannot adjudicate a foul on yourself. You can call it to your opponent's attention but it is he who officially makes it a foul or ignores it. Has anyone else seen this?

petie · Feb 11, 2015

It usually helps to look these things up first.

6.2 Any scratch or foul results in the end of the shooter’s inning, as well as a standard one ball penalty. All balls pocketed in the shooter’s pocket as a result of a stroke that includes a foul do not count for the shooting player and are to be immediately spotted, along with the standard one ball penalty. Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent, and are to be immediately spotted. However, on a stroke when any other foul is committed (such as a push shot, double-hit or illegal ball contact), any balls scored into the opponent’s pocket are to stay down and be counted for the opponent.

TomRoden · Feb 11, 2015

it's a no brainer

it's a no brainer

It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, it's a foul. He hit the cueball twice.

NH Steve · Feb 11, 2015

TomRoden said:
It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, it's a foul. He hit the cueball twice.

Right, intention does not matter, that is why to protect against this sort of thing done accidentally on purpose

the current rules state the ball still counts for the opponent.

PS You also see situations where more than one foul is committed on the same shot -- and maybe one was an accident but maybe another one was on purpose, or maybe the second one was an accident too

But if I was asked, I would rule that the ball would stay down for the opponent in that case, even if the cue ball ended up off the table or in a pocket scratch, assuming a double hit or cue stick pushes the object ball into a pocket, or the like, as long as it's all part of the same shot. I honestly don't know what the general pool rules say about two fouls on the same shot, but I do know you still only owe one ball

NH Steve · Feb 11, 2015

Just looked up the standard rule:

If several fouls occur on one shot, only the most serious one is enforced. If a foul is not called before the next shot begins, the foul is assumed not to have happened.

poolandpokerman · Feb 11, 2015

Sorry guys, I didn't give you the whole picture.

I need 4 balls, I have one hanging in my hole. If my opponent makes this ball and scratches, I have several balls out side the kitchen for an easy out, easy lost of game to my opponent.

So what he does is intentionally double hits the cue ball and makes my ball, but leaves me safe with the cue ball hanging in my own hole, nothing I can do. I have heard that if this happens I would have ball in hand and my ball stays down. I have also heard that I could re spot the ball and put the cue ball back where it was and the opponent would lose a ball because it is a foul.

It just feels that my opponent is getting the best of it my double hitting the cue ball. I hope I made myself a little clearer.

Tom

Drop Pocket · Feb 11, 2015

poolandpokerman said:
Sorry guys, I didn't give you the whole picture.

I need 4 balls, I have one hanging in my hole. If my opponent makes this ball and scratches, I have several balls out side the kitchen for an easy out, easy lost of game to my opponent.

So what he does is intentionally double hits the cue ball and makes my ball, but leaves me safe with the cue ball hanging in my own hole, nothing I can do. I have heard that if this happens I would have ball in hand and my ball stays down. I have also heard that I could re spot the ball and put the cue ball back where it was and the opponent would lose a ball because it is a foul.

It just feels that my opponent is getting the best of it my double hitting the cue ball. I hope I made myself a little clearer.

Tom

I think you would have ball in hand within the head string and the ball would spot. I'm not sure of the official rules, though.

gulfportdoc · Feb 11, 2015

Tom, I think some of us may not understand precisely how he "intentionally double hit the cueball". Did he trap the CB against the pocket facing? Did he "push" the CB? Did he shoot down on the CB while close to the OB?

If he used an illegal technique in commission of the foul, he would get a penalty, plus you could have the balls restored. If it was "unsportsmanlike conduct" he could lose the game or the match. These are all in tournament conditions, though.

~Doc

petie · Feb 12, 2015

This is moot but he really didn't have to do anything but make your ball and get safe. You needed 4.

androd · Feb 12, 2015

poolandpokerman said:
Sorry guys, I didn't give you the whole picture.

I need 4 balls, I have one hanging in my hole. If my opponent makes this ball and scratches, I have several balls out side the kitchen for an easy out, easy lost of game to my opponent.

So what he does is intentionally double hits the cue ball and makes my ball, but leaves me safe with the cue ball hanging in my own hole, nothing I can do. I have heard that if this happens I would have ball in hand and my ball stays down. I have also heard that I could re spot the ball and put the cue ball back where it was and the opponent would lose a ball because it is a foul.

It just feels that my opponent is getting the best of it my double hitting the cue ball. I hope I made myself a little clearer.

Tom

Was he wanting to spot yours and one of his and leave the CB where it stopped?

Rod.

poolandpokerman · Feb 12, 2015

Yes, that is what he wanted to do, leave the cue by my hole. Yes I understand if I needed 4 but what if I only needed one and there was a ball I could make in my hole if he scratched and made my ball and gave me ball in hand behind the line. Thanks, Tom

androd · Feb 12, 2015

poolandpokerman said:
Yes, that is what he wanted to do, leave the cue by my hole. Yes I understand if I needed 4 but what if I only needed one and there was a ball I could make in my hole if he scratched and made my ball and gave me ball in hand behind the line. Thanks, Tom

If you only needed one the game would be over. You may keep the one he made. I've seen it when someone needed one, the double foul is a loss.
The rules guys will have straighten out the rest. I'd have him spot one, I'd keep my ball and shoot from there.
Rod.
P.S. I really have no idea whats proper.

petie · Feb 12, 2015

poolandpokerman said:
Yes, that is what he wanted to do, leave the cue by my hole. Yes I understand if I needed 4 but what if I only needed one and there was a ball I could make in my hole if he scratched and made my ball and gave me ball in hand behind the line. Thanks, Tom

Starting from you needing 1 and your game ball is in the jaws and there are other balls on the table that would be in play and makeable if the cue ball were in the kitchen, he has to run all the balls that are south of the head string before he is safe to make your game ball and follow it in. I have done this many times and eventually won the game.

Cowboy Dennis · Feb 13, 2015

androd said:
If you only needed one the game would be over. You may keep the one he made. I've seen it when someone needed one, the double foul is a loss.
The rules guys will have straighten out the rest. I'd have him spot one, I'd keep my ball and shoot from there.
Rod.
P.S. I really have no idea whats proper.

What you wrote is proper (as usual). The ball wouldn't spot up on a double-hit, you would keep it and the double-hit is a foul so he owes a ball.

RBL

poolandpokerman · Feb 13, 2015

Thanks for all the information, I think the thing to do is make sure you play with the straight up guys and not the ones that try to bend the rules or would do anything to win, legal or not. Again, thanks for everything. Tom Harris

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