Lee Van Corteza vs. Alex Pagulayan 2012 D.C.C.

[wincardona]

I was talking about the Z-bank, not the safety. I guess I should have pointed that out.

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were talking about banking the 8. Is the Z- bank the same as banking the 8 ball three in the side? If so it doesn't look like the angle for that shot is on. If it is I would shoot that shot.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

This is the shot I'm referring to:

 

[wincardona]

This is the shot I'm referring to:

View attachment 6394

Dennis, I understand that that's the actual Z- shot, but the Z- shot Banks was referring to was the 8 ball (I believe) Look below.

If I believed myself to have a 50% chance of blocking or making either the 8 or 4, I'd be all over those. The angle for the 8 looks like a scratch if not hit with something to avoid it and, playing myself, I feel I'd be taking a flyer with the 4 to give up a straight-back that I'd drool for in comparison.

Made a Z or two yesterday, but at closer to the angle of the 8. Need to practice those a bit more, I guess. That, and everything else.

I'm still confused.

Dr. Bill

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Dennis, I understand that that's the actual Z- shot, but the Z- shot Banks was referring to was the 8 ball (I believe) Look below.

If I believed myself to have a 50% chance of blocking or making either the 8 or 4, I'd be all over those. The angle for the 8 looks like a scratch if not hit with something to avoid it and, playing myself, I feel I'd be taking a flyer with the 4 to give up a straight-back that I'd drool for in comparison.

Made a Z or two yesterday, but at closer to the angle of the 8. Need to practice those a bit more, I guess. That, and everything else.

I'm still confused.

Dr. Bill

I'm referring to post #20.

Dennis

 

[oldspurguy]

Will the seven go one rail in the corner? If so, it looks like the cueball will miss the eight. Seems like you could try it, and still not leave much.

 

[wincardona]

I don't care what anyone else on the planet would shoot or why, but, for my money I'm banking the 4 ball two-rails cross-corner just as you would Freddy. I would never do otherwise in this position.

What's not to like? You need one ball. You get to shoot straight ahead, stroke the ball, and it will die blocking the corner if you miss it (most likely) preventing the straight-back on the 7 & 8. This is fairly simple to see.

Dennis

Did you mean 'fairly simple to see' or "fairly simple to do'?

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

Did you mean 'fairly simple to see' or "fairly simple to do'?

Dr. Bill

I set this shot up on my Diamond Table and shot it 5 times, but first I would like to add that the angle that I see is not a shoot and stop angle to pocket the bank. To pocket the Z-bank the shot needs to be slightly cut, not only does that create problems with the accuracy of the hit it also makes the speed of the shot harder to feel. In addition to that the chances of giving up a return bank are increased because of the problems in controlling both the speed of the 4 ball and the speed and direction the cue ball will take. You not only run the risk of giving up a return bank on either the 7 or 8 balls, but also the pink 4 ball when you consider the difficulty in controlling the speed of the ball because you have to slightly cut it.

The 5 times I shot it I never made it and only got it close to the pocket once. I don't feel that this is a good shot to take in this situation based off of my findings. This shot is not shoot and stick.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

I set this shot up on my Diamond Table and shot it 5 times, but first I would like to add that the angle that I see is not a shoot and stop angle to pocket the bank. To pocket the Z-bank the shot needs to be slightly cut, not only does that create problems with the accuracy of the hit it also makes the speed of the shot harder to feel. In addition to that the chances of giving up a return bank are increased because of the problems in controlling both the speed of the 4 ball and the speed and direction the cue ball will take. You not only run the risk of giving up a return bank on either the 7 or 8 balls, but also the pink 4 ball when you consider the difficulty in controlling the speed of the ball because you have to slightly cut it.

The 5 times I shot it I never made it and only got it close to the pocket once. I don't feel that this is a good shot to take in this situation based off of my findings. This shot is not shoot and stick.

Dr. Bill

I went back to my table and shot it 5 more times, I made it one time and I never was able to control the speed of the shot because of the angle and the speed needed to hit and stick.Even though I couldn't hit and stick I tried to get as little movement with the cue ball as possible which created problems with both the direction and speed of the 4 ball. This is not a good option period. At least, not for me.:sorry

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

I went back to my table and shot it 5 more times, I made it one time and I never was able to control the speed of the shot because of the angle and the speed needed to hit and stick.Even though I couldn't hit and stick I tried to get as little movement with the cue ball as possible which created problems with both the direction and speed of the 4 ball. This is not a good option period. At least, not for me.:sorry

Dr. Bill

I just came back from the store and was thinking about this shot on the way back. I said to myself that when I get back i'll set the shot up so it's a hit and stick shot to see if I would like the shot if it ever showed like that. Well I shot the shot 5 times and made it twice, hung it once and missed it twice. But, I hit the shot with the speed that gave me the best chance of making it, which I did 40% of the time plus like I mentioned hung it once. I concluded that if you're going to play this shot in situations that allowed you to, the best way to play the shot is with the speed that gives you the most accuracy, and not the speed that blocks the pocket if you miss it.

So, if the shot shows where it's a hit and stick shot I would strongly consider shooting it, but if the angle precludes me from hitting and sticking I would not play the shot.

I guess Freddie was correct with his evaluation of the shot, providing it is a hit and stick shot but like I suggested that if the shot shows, play the shot with the speed that gives you the most accurate hit. Jmo.

Dr. Bill

 

[gulfportdoc]

I set this shot up on my Diamond Table and shot it 5 times, but first I would like to add that the angle that I see is not a shoot and stop angle to pocket the bank. To pocket the Z-bank the shot needs to be slightly cut, not only does that create problems with the accuracy of the hit it also makes the speed of the shot harder to feel. In addition to that the chances of giving up a return bank are increased because of the problems in controlling both the speed of the 4 ball and the speed and direction the cue ball will take. You not only run the risk of giving up a return bank on either the 7 or 8 balls, but also the pink 4 ball when you consider the difficulty in controlling the speed of the ball because you have to slightly cut it.

The 5 times I shot it I never made it and only got it close to the pocket once. I don't feel that this is a good shot to take in this situation based off of my findings. This shot is not shoot and stick. Dr. Bill

I wondered about that angle myself. It looked to my eye like the OB had to be contacted a little left of center. Either that, or to shorten the angle, the shot would have to be hit pretty hard if shot straight on, or with a smidge of left english-- neither of which I'd like to do. I'd like the shot better if I could roll the CB forward and bank it off the rail more towards center table, which would make the 8 & 7 much harder to bank.

Another minor consideration is that the CB is close to the rail, which would cause the shooter to have to dig down on the CB a little if using low english.

But Fred's reasoning is solid too. If a guy is reasonably confident about making the twice-across pink, then he should go for it. Even if not, the best that the opponent probably could do would be to make two, when he needs five. The shooter can win the game here with very little downside if he misses.

Doc

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Did you mean 'fairly simple to see' or "fairly simple to do'?

Dr. Bill

I meant "fairly simple to see" that it's "fairly simple to do".

Lee Vann Corteza playing Alex P. decided to bank the 7 ball straight-back from this position. He missed.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I don't care what anyone else on the planet would shoot or why, but, for my money I'm banking the 4 ball two-rails cross-corner just as you would Freddy. I would never do otherwise in this position.

What's not to like? You need one ball. You get to shoot straight ahead, stroke the ball, and it will die blocking the corner if you miss it (most likely) preventing the straight-back on the 7 & 8. This is fairly simple to see.

Dennis

That makes the score so far:
Dr Bill two. Including himself
Da Beard two. Including himself.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Sorry, I didn't realize that you were talking about banking the 8. Is the Z- bank the same as banking the 8 ball three in the side? If so it doesn't look like the angle for that shot is on. If it is I would shoot that shot.

Dr. Bill

The three in the side does not at all look like it is on. If it were, I would change my mind and shoot at it, foregoing my concern over the dangerous position of the 4 ball and maybe even leaving him something on the 7 ball. My reason being, is that the three in the side ( for me) is at the minimum, an even money shot to make. Three in the sides are much easier than people think. Remember, I said I was probably only 33% to make the Z bank with the 4 ball. Insuring the speed on the 4 ball that would guarantee the pocket to be blocked would probably reduce my percentage to 25%.
To try and win the game, and also to be certain I couldnt lose it, I would have to fire at any even money shot.

Beard

For anybody that wants to give me two shots at the 3 in the side at Tunica, the window will be open.

But alas, I have digressed. The opinions in this thread are based on the 8 ball 3 in the side option not being available. I fudged the diagram slightly to show how percentages can completely affect your shot choice.

To elaborate further, if the two balls hanging in the pocket were not hanging in the pocket but were bankable, the even money 3 in the side wouldnt look so good anymore. Especially if I was going to leave a decent shot. I would be looking much harder at the Z bank 4 ball, and there is also a good chance I would just play some sort or safety, something maybe like Billy suggested trying to take some balls out of play.

Beard

 

[fred bentivegna]

I meant "fairly simple to see" that it's "fairly simple to do".

Lee Vann Corteza playing Alex P. decided to bank the 7 ball straight-back from this position. He missed.

View attachment 6395

That is one of the worst options. Behind 4 zip and from where he left the qball I would knock off the hanging 3 ball. Two railing the qball back to the head rail, hoping I dont knock off the hanging 9 ball and leave a cross corner on the 8. But, probably leaving a very difficult cross side on the 8 ball which I hope he shoots at. If he does and misses, he will leave the qball near the head rail. (He certainly wouldnt hit it hard and put me among the other 3 balls needing only 1.) If he misses, he gives me the opportunity I was working to get to. I now can knock off the only other ball out of play, the 9, leaving very little. I also have a big chance to corner hook him off of the hanging 9. Thats what I was shooting for. No matter what else happens, I would now be back in the game.

Beard

This is a good example of how vulnerable a big lead can be in bank pool. The original position looks to be impossible to win from. 2 balls hanging and 2 pretty much out of play, and in two shots every ball is back in play, he is hanging in the back corner at the minimum, and with a possible corner hook going for you.

 

[fred bentivegna]

I wondered about that angle myself. It looked to my eye like the OB had to be contacted a little left of center. Either that, or to shorten the angle, the shot would have to be hit pretty hard if shot straight on, or with a smidge of right english-- neither of which I'd like to do. I'd like the shot better if I could roll the CB forward and bank it off the rail more towards center table, which would make the 8 & 7 much harder to bank.

Another minor consideration is that the CB is close to the rail, which would cause the shooter to have to dig down on the CB a little if using low english.

But Fred's reasoning is solid too. If a guy is reasonably confident about making the twice-across pink, then he should go for it. Even if not, the best that the opponent probably could do would be to make two, when he needs five. The shooter can win the game here with very little downside if he misses.

Doc

Lets count this as almost a whole "1."

Score: Dr Bill 2
Da Beard 2 3/4

Speak up y'all

 

[fred bentivegna]

I just came back from the store and was thinking about this shot on the way back. I said to myself that when I get back i'll set the shot up so it's a hit and stick shot to see if I would like the shot if it ever showed like that. Well I shot the shot 5 times and made it twice, hung it once and missed it twice. But, I hit the shot with the speed that gave me the best chance of making it, which I did 40% of the time plus like I mentioned hung it once. I concluded that if you're going to play this shot in situations that allowed you to, the best way to play the shot is with the speed that gives you the most accuracy, and not the speed that blocks the pocket if you miss it.

So, if the shot shows where it's a hit and stick shot I would strongly consider shooting it, but if the angle precludes me from hitting and sticking I would not play the shot.

I guess Freddie was correct with his evaluation of the shot, providing it is a hit and stick shot but like I suggested that if the shot shows, play the shot with the speed that gives you the most accurate hit. Jmo.

Dr. Bill

We will count that as another 3/4's.

Score now:

Dr Bill 2
Da Beard 3 1/2

Incidentally. According to the diagram, the Z banger on the 4 ball is laying at approx. diamond 6 to diamond 3. A perfect 2 to 1 angle. However, all who have read my book knows that a 2 to 1 angle hit at medium speed, no english, will come short, in this case about 1/2 diamond. In the diagram the actual layout is about 5 3/4 to 3 which would put you at about 3/4 of a diamond short. Probably the right spot to hit on the 2nd rail to make the Z banger. (Unless you are playing on brand new cloth -- which would invalidate all the above measurements because the object will take a giant flop off of the 2nd rail.)

Beard

 

[wincardona]

We will count that as another 3/4's.

Score now:

Dr Bill 2
Da Beard 3 1/2

Incidentally. According to the diagram, the Z banger on the 4 ball is laying at approx. diamond 6 to diamond 3. A perfect 2 to 1 angle. However, all who have read my book knows that a 2 to 1 angle hit at medium speed, no english, will come short, in this case about 1/2 diamond. In the diagram the actual layout is about 5 3/4 to 3 which would put you at about 3/4 of a diamond short. Probably the right spot to hit on the 2nd rail to make the Z banger. (Unless you are playing on brand new cloth -- which would invalidate all the above measurements because the object will take a giant flop off of the 2nd rail.)

Beard

Not so fast with this selective scoring that you're using.:sorry If you look at post #31 there is a clear understanding of where the 4 ball and cue ball are positioned. Based off of the position of the balls it's clear to me that the shot is not a hit and stick shot. I set the exact shot up and shot it 3 times and concluded that it was 1/2 diamond short of a hit and stick shot. I agreed with your concept with shooting this shot, providing it was a hit and stick shotwhich it's not. And I still stand firm on my opinion of not choosing the option because it was not laying right for it to be a hit and stick shot. My conclusion in this particular situation would be not to shoot the shot because it's not a hit and stick shot, which I have already mentioned. Now how about you? Would you still choose this option if it was laying short, considering the other options?

I also mentioned if this shot showed in some scenarios I would strongly consider shooting it, but this one is not one of them scenarios because it's not a hit and stick shot, plus my safety option still holds a lot of weight with me. Now if the shot was a hit and stick shot in this exact situation I would strongly consider it, meaning that it would definitely be a preferred option but not a for sure one.

By the way the shot that LVC played was a better shot then the Z-bank with the 4 ball imo. It only looked like a bad option because of the difficulty in executing it but not for a player like LVC. I would agree for a lesser player it might not be an option, but for top players it certainly is, imo.

Dr. Bill

 

[wincardona]

We will count that as another 3/4's.

Score now:

Dr Bill 2
Da Beard 3 1/2

Incidentally. According to the diagram, the Z banger on the 4 ball is laying at approx. diamond 6 to diamond 3. ( Please don't try to validate your choice with this option by forcing the position of the balls to be laying ideal for you Z shot when their clearly not. The 4 ball is positioned 1/2" short of the diamond (edge of the ball) 2" off the rail. The cue ball is positioned 3" off the side rail laying between the diamonds. That is the exact position of the balls. I set the shot up on my Diamond and shot it enough to say for certain that it's at least a 1/2 diamond short of a hit and stick shot) A perfect 2 to 1 angle. However, all who have read my book knows that a 2 to 1 angle hit at medium speed, no english, will come short, in this case about 1/2 diamond. In the diagram the actual layout is about 5 3/4 to 3 which would put you at about 3/4 of a diamond short. Probably the right spot to hit on the 2nd rail to make the Z banger. (Unless you are playing on brand new cloth -- which would invalidate all the above measurements because the object will take a giant flop off of the 2nd rail.)

Beard

I respect what info you share in your book, but I can only report my feelings based off of what actually transpires when I take a shot to a live situation. I agreed with your concept about why you would shoot the Z-bank providing it was hit and stickBut if the angle was not hit and stick it would complicate the shot too much for it to be a viable option. This I am certain of, especially in a situation where you have better options.

Dr. Bill

 

[fred bentivegna]

Not so fast with this selective scoring that you're using.:sorry If you look at post #31 there is a clear understanding of where the 4 ball and cue ball are positioned. Based off of the position of the balls it's clear to me that the shot is not a hit and stick shot. I set the exact shot up and shot it 3 times and concluded that it was 1/2 diamond short of a hit and stick shot. I agreed with your concept with shooting this shot, providing it was a hit and stick shotwhich it's not. And I still stand firm on my opinion of not choosing the option because it was not laying right for it to be a hit and stick shot. My conclusion in this particular situation would be not to shoot the shot because it's not a hit and stick shot, which I have already mentioned. Now how about you? Would you still choose this option if it was laying short, considering the other options?

I also mentioned if this shot showed in some scenarios I would strongly consider shooting it, but this one is not one of them scenarios because it's not a hit and stick shot, plus my safety option still holds a lot of weight with me. Now if the shot was a hit and stick shot in this exact situation I would strongly consider it, meaning that it would definitely be a preferred option but not a for sure one.

By the way the shot that LVC played was a better shot then the Z-bank with the 4 ball imo. It only looked like a bad option because of the difficulty in executing it but not for a player like LVC. I would agree for a lesser player it might not be an option, but for top players it certainly is, imo.

Dr. Bill

The math is to count the diamonds of the long rail where the cue ball abides. Go from left to right. The cue ball is laying "thru" diamond 5 3/4. Next measure the distance from the left end of the long rail where the object ball lies to the point where the imaginary ruler line would intersect. That would be pretty, pretty close to diamond #3. Hence, 5 3/4 to 3. (this is amended later when I actually lay out the shot with a ruler)

Beard

Screw evertthing I just said. I just copied the diagram and ruled a line across the table between the two balls. It works out that the cue ball position is 5 3/4 diamonds, but the object ball position is not laying on diamond 3, but its actually on diamond 2 3/4's. Very close to a 2 to 1 angle and laying where the object ball is aiming to run short. :sorry Dr Bill

This changes the whole scenario. What I would do now is play the 4 ball 3 in the side. It is now laying where it can go, and I would follow the cue ball forward and down toward the foot rail. First i would make sure the 4 ball ran long enough to catch the foot cushion on the second rail. I would either make the 3 railer -- and it can go -- or I would position the 4 ball back down in la la land, safe as mothers milk.

Oh, and incidentally, didnt you read what I said about LVC's choice in post #34 and how fast I would get back in the game after his miss?

 

[wincardona]

Even looking at post #31, if you run a ruler thru the middle of the cue ball and the middle of the object ball you will see that the apparent angle is 5 3/4 diamond to diamond 3. 5 3/4 to 3. Less than a 2 to 1 angle.

The math is to count the diamonds of the long rail where the cue ball abides. Go from left to right. The cue ball is laying "thru" diamond 5 3/4. Next measure the distance from the left end of the long rail where the object ball lies to the point where the imaginary ruler line would intersect. That would be pretty, pretty close to diamond #3. Hence, 5 3/4 to 3.

Beard

Fred, what ever method you use to figure out how the balls are laying is not my argument, i'll give you that.:focus My opinion on this bank is not how one figures the position, but the angle the position offers the shot. The angle that the balls are laying in is not conducive to a hit and stick shot. You also understand that this shot needs to be hit with speed to hold the cue ball, understanding this then you should also agree that it will shorten the angle even more. Now based off of what I say, providing i'm correct my question to you is..would you still choose this option if you had to cut the ball? If so that's where we have our disagreement with this shot.

Bottom line is that in situations like this one, choosing the Z- bank as an option would only be viable for me if I could hit and stick. Especially in this exact situation where you have to defend against three balls 4-7-and 8 balls as a possible return shot option for your opponent.
Dr. Bill