Science and "Combination" throw!

[mr3cushion]

Does anyone know a formula for, "How much a 2 ball combination will "throw", (balls are frozen, or NO more than 1/8 inch apart) per different distances from the pocket?"

Here's an example of a combination, "Who thinks it can or can't be
made and why for each answer?"

I was taught a, "rule of thumb" formula many years ago by a TOP player. Just curious to hear what others have to say on this subject!

View attachment 10658

Sorry, I drew the aiming line a little crooked from CB to OB. It's late and I'm too lazy to redraw!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Does anyone know a formula for, "How much a 2 ball combination will "throw", (balls are frozen, or NO more than 1/8 inch apart) per different distances from the pocket?"

Here's an example of a combination, "Who thinks it can or can't be
made and why for each answer?"

I was taught a, "rule of thumb" formula many years ago by a TOP player. Just curious to hear what others have to say on this subject!

View attachment 10658

Sorry, I drew the aiming line a little crooked from CB to OB. It's late and I'm too lazy to redraw!

From Dr. Dave's Pool/Billiards FAQ (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#maximum):

"Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees."

pj
chgo

 

[mr3cushion]

From Dr. Dave's Pool/Billiards FAQ (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#maximum):

"Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees."

pj
chgo

That's the EXACT SAME answer I got from, "Joe Procita" over 50 years ago! And I don't think Joe could spell the word, "science!"

 

[Patrick Johnson]

That's the EXACT SAME answer I got from, "Joe Procita" over 50 years ago! And I don't think Joe could spell the word, "science!"

So Joe was better at science than at spelling. I'm not surprised - science is more about common sense than about book larnin'.

pj
chgo

 

[vapros]

I'm pretty certain that 'maximum throw' is not the same with clean balls as it is with dirty balls. In high humidity and in low humidity, etc.

 

[mr3cushion]

I'm pretty certain that 'maximum throw' is not the same with clean balls as it is with dirty balls. In high humidity and in low humidity, etc.

Bill; I think that's just a "given" factor in the equation when analyzing the combination.

Hey, I better stop these kinds of threads, I'm starting to sound like one of, THEM! THEM!! THEM!!! THEM!!!! :lol:lol:lol

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I'm pretty certain that 'maximum throw' is not the same with clean balls as it is with dirty balls. In high humidity and in low humidity, etc.

Yes, ball cleanliness, age, humidity all affect the amount of throw because they affect the friction between balls. As Dr. Dave says, 1 inch per foot is an estimate for "typical" conditions - it could be a little more or less depending on actual conditions.

pj
chgo

 

[straightback]

From Dr. Dave's Pool/Billiards FAQ (http://billiards.colostate.edu/threads/throw.html#maximum):

"Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees."

pj
chgo

I always understood this rule to apply to a different type of throw - the throw you get from say 3 or 9 o'clock English rotationally throws a ball struck full in the face about 1" every foot. I think this was a quotation I saw from Bud Harris in one of Beard's tomes. Nearly certain.

Accordingly, there a a few types of situations where we talk about "throw" that actually differ.

 

[androd]

We used to teach people to make these, then send someone in who would set it up and bet they couldn't make it.
A little dab of saliva between the balls and it doesn't go.
Rod.

 

[mr3cushion]

I always understood this rule to apply to a different type of throw - the throw you get from say 3 or 9 o'clock English rotationally throws a ball struck full in the face about 1" every foot. I think this was a quotation I saw from Bud Harris in one of Beard's tomes. Nearly certain.

Accordingly, there a a few types of situations where we talk about "throw" that actually differ.

YOU are 100% CORRECT, Bud Harris did tell Freddy, Joe Procita woke up Bud to the info. Bud, did play a little straight pool and was the BEST 3C player when He first showed up in Chicago around, 1963. Bud, was little bit of a "SPG" player, that's what held Him back from His "Natural" game! I definitely learned a VERY important "science" related" theory on , how balls react contacting cushions at various angles and what English is needed to produce the "Natural" angle in "system" play from Bud! He was a little bit like Freddy, in the sense neither one of them really had much natural ability for the cue games, they had to work at it ALL the time!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I always understood this rule to apply to a different type of throw - the throw you get from say 3 or 9 o'clock English rotationally throws a ball struck full in the face about 1" every foot. I think this was a quotation I saw from Bud Harris in one of Beard's tomes. Nearly certain.

Accordingly, there a a few types of situations where we talk about "throw" that actually differ.

Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.

1 inch per foot is the maximum throw (for typical conditions - i.e., "average" cleanliness, wear, humidity, etc.). You'd usually get less than this.

pj
chgo

 

[straightback]

Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.

Similar. However, a frozen OB will never be spinning as much as a CB hit with 3 or 9 o'clock English. Also, a frozen throw is more of an angular hit that merely relies on angle and force, whereas the other throw relies on an orbiting CB and the transferred English and energy from the spin.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Me:
Hitting a frozen combo from an angle is the same as hitting a single OB full in the face with sidespin.

straightback:
Similar. However, a frozen OB will never be spinning as much as a CB hit with 3 or 9 o'clock English.

A frozen combo hit at 30 degrees will throw the 2nd OB as far as a single OB can be thrown with a spinning cue ball.

Also, a frozen throw is more of an angular hit that merely relies on angle and force, whereas the other throw relies on an orbiting CB and the transferred English and energy from the spin.

They both rely on the same thing: the balls' surfaces rubbing against each other.

pj
chgo

 

[onepocket926]

A frozen combo hit at 30 degrees will throw the 2nd OB as far as a single OB can be thrown with a spinning cue ball.


They both rely on the same thing: the balls' surfaces rubbing against each other.

pj
chgo

....hmmmm !!!.....yes...true...

......but, in one case (frozen balls....brrrrrr !!!).......the English that is being transferred is purely passing English....

......the other will use the passing English and also include the side spin of the Cue ball (both transferable to the OB)......the amount of throw....depends on the angle of attack....and the amount of side spin used....

......that being said..... I would conclude that the ...side spin could invoke a greater throw of the OB......if the angle of the shot....dictated the passing English as well.....

 

[Patrick Johnson]

....hmmmm !!!.....yes...true...

......but, in one case (frozen balls....brrrrrr !!!).......the English that is being transferred is purely passing English....

......the other will use the passing English and also include the side spin of the Cue ball (both transferable to the OB)......the amount of throw....depends on the angle of attack....and the amount of side spin used....

......that being said..... I would conclude that the ...side spin could invoke a greater throw of the OB......if the angle of the shot....dictated the passing English as well.....

The main point I've tried to make about throw is that increasing the rubbing speed only adds throw up to a point - adding more speed beyond this point actually reduces throw (remember the peeling out tire analogy?). Less is more.

Maximum throw without sidespin is produced by a half ball cut - adding any sidespin to a half ball cut (or thinner) reduces throw. Maximum throw without a cut angle is 1/2 maximum sidespin - adding any cut angle to a 1/2 maximum sidespin shot (or more) reduces throw.

In other words hitting a frozen combo at a 30 degree angle or a single OB without sidespin at a 30 degree angle both generate the most throw possible. Adding sidespin to either one reduces the amount of throw.

pj
chgo

 

[onepocket926]

The main point I've tried to make about throw is that increasing the rubbing speed only adds throw up to a point - adding more speed beyond this point actually reduces throw (remember the peeling out tire analogy?). Less is more.

Maximum throw without sidespin is produced by a half ball cut - adding any sidespin to a half ball cut (or thinner) reduces throw. Maximum throw without a cut angle is 1/2 maximum sidespin - adding any cut angle to a 1/2 maximum sidespin shot (or more) reduces throw.

In other words hitting a frozen combo at a 30 degree angle or a single OB without sidespin at a 30 degree angle both generate the most throw possible. Adding sidespin to either one reduces the amount of throw.

pj
chgo

.......my new thread may better explain my thoughts on the subject.....

http://www.onepocket.org/forum/showthread.php?t=9284

 

[treeMan]

Patrick, don't you think the frozen ball will throw more than a cut shot because of the added wight of the cue ball and the frozen first ball? This is what I think intuitively and from experience - that the frozen combo can be thrown more.

Similar to the case of a four ball string on the foot spot, the lowest ball can be pocketed from just off the center of the foot rail with follow, hitting it full. This case relates to spin transfer so it's different but kinda conveys the concept.

(I admit I have never gotten this to go but anyone can see the effect )

tree

 

[onepocket926]

Patrick, don't you think the frozen ball will throw more than a cut shot because of the added wight of the cue ball and the frozen first ball? This is what I think intuitively and from experience - that the frozen combo can be thrown more.

Similar to the case of a four ball string on the foot spot, the lowest ball can be pocketed from just off the center of the foot rail with follow, hitting it full. This case relates to spin transfer so it's different but kinda conveys the concept.

(I admit I have never gotten this to go but anyone can see the effect )

tree

....You certainly have a longer contact duration with frozen balls (brrrrrr).....I think speed is the determining factor here......the slower You hit it...the more it throws.....

 

[LSJohn]

"Maximum throw, under typical conditions, is about 1 inch per foot of CB travel, which is about 5 degrees."

I have two questions/comments. Does distnce of CB travel really matter, or was "CB" a typo and the 1 inch per foot actually refers to OB travel?

Straightback: My impression is that sidespin on the CB does not affect OB direction of travel on an dead-on full hit. At least a slight off-center hit seems to me to be needed. (I agree this doesn't sound right, but it's what I think I've observed.)