Artie and Clyde at the "Northshore Club."

[LSJohn]

@Mr3C

I don't knock MY FRIENDS

Certainly a good policy, but one man's knock is sometimes another man's constructive criticism or simply baring a truth that might be relevant and important to the subject at hand.

For instance, if two people were discussing a match between player X and me where X was giving me 9-7 and the break, and X beat me soundly, a comment to the effect that LSJohn has a very weak break might fairly shed light on player X's true skill. I would not feel knocked, even if I thought the comment was off-base.

I don't think it is a knock of the type one should take personally if it is simply expression of opinion on natural ability, knowledge or execution. To me, a true knock is a negative comment on one's character, or on something one can't change, like race, gender, nation of birth, height, baldness, etc.

BTW, we also use "knock" to describe ratting out a player's superior[/] ability to someone who is not entitled to expect the full truth. (If I warn my brother not to play you 3C, it's not this kind of knock because he's entitled to expect the whole truth from me at all times.)

I will grant this: There's more "knock" in criticism of a person's knowledge if that person is making a living in the field.

 

[androd]

Some breaks are worth nothing, some are worth the whole game. Hard to place an exact number on.

One thing not spoken about, when breaking every game (even switching pockets) after a few hours the breaker groove gets better and the breaks improve quite a bit.

Rod.

P.S. Been there, done that, paid a lot for the tee shirt.

 

[onepocket926]

My thinking has been going the other way -- not specifically with Ronnie, but in general. (Nobody seems to agree with me so I must be full of sh*t.)

I recently re-watched the entire series of about 100 Accu-Stats one pocket matches I have and although I didn't chart it, my strong impression is that the non-breaker is winning more than 40% of the games. (There are at least two or three where the non-breaker won all five games in a race to three.)

What I'm taking from this is that the break is not nearly as strong between top players as it is between us lesser mortals, and not as much as 1.5-2 balls.

Can I get an Amen from anybody?

....ahhhh ahhhh ahhhhh choooooo !!!!! *bull shit*......

....actually I was only referring to RA's break.......He played OnePocket...like most players play 9 ball......if He broke.....there was a very good chance...You didn't get to shoot......

......I will give You an Amen....on the Top vs. Lessor Players part of your post.........even though.......I believe (imo) 1.5 balls.......is the going rate....between two evenly matched or handicapped Players.........

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

the break is not nearly as strong between top players as it is between lesser mortals

Can I get an Amen from anybody?

This is good analyzing John, and I agree with you...the reason obviously being, that strong players have a top-speed skill set, which will enable them to successfully respond to the break more often than an average player will be able to.

- Ghost

 

[LSJohn]

@926

between two evenly matched or handicapped Players.

You mean handicapped like me... crippled, half-blind, alzheimers-afflicted dalmatian?

 

[onepocket926]

@926



You mean handicapped like me... crippled, half-blind, alzheimers-afflicted dalmatian?

....:lol...You flatter Me......listing my many quality attributes.......as an example of...what a Player should look forward to....in the sunset of his Life....

 

[LSJohn]

....:lol...You flatter Me......listing my many quality attributes.......as an example of...what a Player should look forward to....in the sunset of his Life....

Sunset?

If you look as good as your avatar, you're in way better shape than I.

 

[onepocket926]

Sunset?

If you look as good as your avatar, you're in way better shape than I.

....:lol......Photoshop can take 30#'s off your weight...and 10 years off your look.....


...I can lend You my copy.......

 

[LSJohn]

This is good analyzing John, and I agree with you...the reason obviously being, that strong players have a top-speed skill set, which will enable them to successfully respond to the break more often than an average player will be able to.

- Ghost

A corollary to that is that the break rarely creates a real trap. When it doesn't, the incoming player has the first opportunity to create one.

 

[straightback]

Ghost, in reading what you have stated here, then you must agree with this as well: a trap is worth less to a pro because other man has lots of firepower to get out of it. However, the first man has the skills to put them right back in it.

Also, with amateurs, they are less able to keep a trap going and are less able to exploit it when the trap creates an offensive opportunity.

So, I feel the break is roughly worth the same for most competent players, but with the absolute top-flight players, I do agree with your valuation. I say this because I rarely see a pro hold his man under the break until the same trap pays off. Now, later in the game you see this, but not very often right from the break.

 

[wincardona]

I too am fascinated and curious about that spot. Looking at it from Artie's perspective, if he liked it, I'm sure he figured to do well at it, that's for sure. He never made stupid games. In fact he stated that they both "loved the game". My guess is that Artie was comfortable with the room and the equipment, whereas Ronnie was not as familiar with those. He realized that giving RA the breaks was worth at least two balls to RA, thereby effectively making their game Artie getting 9-8. Artie probably figured that since no one could spot him at 1P at that time, he had another advantage.

RA probably figured the same about the value of the break, and, that since he could give almost any human alive 9-8 in those days, he had the advantage over this "regional" player. I'm not sure when this contest was proposed, but RA was probably in his prime and flyin' high (in more ways than one), and was bowling everyone over with his offensive prowess.

It gives testament to Artie's fearsome play that RA could not get backed for that proposition. I imagine RA too was mystified.

My comments are pure speculations. There are probably other angles I haven't considered. But matching up is a huge part of 1P, so it's interesting to try to understand the thinking behind famous props.

I hope Artie will come on here and share with us some of his thinking about the spot that was proposed. Also Cardone could probably shed some meaningful light on that spot with those two players, since he knew both of them, and has seasoned knowledge about handicapping. I don't know if Ghost was around at that time. If so he might share his reflections.

~Doc

Art, this proposal must of came up in the 70's or early 80's when both Ronnie and Artie were at their best, however, what puzzles me is why would they try to match up with a prop game when Ronnie was recognized as the best one pocket player in the world, why didn't they try to match up playing even? I'm sure Ronnie had a better chance of getting staked at that game..don't you think?

Lets look at the proposition 11/8 with Ronnie breaking.

This is good analyzing John, and I agree with you...the reason obviously being, that strong players have a top-speed skill set, which will enable them to successfully respond to the break more often than an average player will be able to.

- Ghost

__________________

I agree with this way of thinking that top players defend the break better than lesser players do, however, not all top players are gifted with the ability to think their way out of the break as well as the few who actually do. Jack Cooney comes to mind, along with other great players like Boston Shorty , Ed Kelly, Jimmy Fusco, Allen Hopkins, and of course the great Efryn Reyes. Artie certainly fits nicely in this group and perhaps could be right there with Reyes. So Specialist players like the above players are better equipped to give up the break to top players and get the maximum with the additional balls that their given in return for the break. (11/8)

11/8 is about 1-1/2 balls. I'm sure ronnie thought that about right.
Rod.

I'm certainly not going to win many battles disagreeing with you, however, 11/8 is worth two full balls (imo) if i'm correct then Artie was getting the max as a trade off.

The other variables of importance is the conditions..pocket size..cloth speed..humidity...Of course larger pockets with little humidity on a fast surface all favors the breaker, and matching up this game with these two would be of great importance to negotiate the best conditions, and for each of them it would be the opposite conditions. If for some reason one player was to dictate the conditions, that's the player that would probably win. imo

If Artie loved his game I would have to bet on Artie, i'm sure it had a lot to do with the conditions and 11/8 is a lot of weight for one top player to give to another one, especially if the player getting the spot of the 11/8 is proficient in getting out of the break.

We will never know what would of happened, but it's a lot of fun guessing.

Bill Incardona

 

[gulfportdoc]

Art, this proposal must of came up in the 70's or early 80's when both Ronnie and Artie were at their best, however, what puzzles me is why would they try to match up with a prop game when Ronnie was recognized as the best one pocket player in the world, why didn't they try to match up playing even? I'm sure Ronnie had a better chance of getting staked at that game..don't you think?

Lets look at the proposition 11/8 with Ronnie breaking. ...

Yes I do. Unfortunately we'll never know RA's perspective. I do think there's a tendency for top players who are also good handicappers to try to be creative in their match making. I've seen you make some very interesting spots with your challenges. And Grady has come up with some doozies.

I'm presuming that Artie felt he had the best of it. And I'm sure that well informed backers were aware of Artie's prowess.

I PM'd Artie to see if he'd enlighten us on this interesting prop match. Hopefully he'll respond to this thread, or start a new one.

~Doc

 

[LSJohn]

@cardone

Jack Cooney comes to mind, along with other great players like Boston Shorty , Ed Kelly, Jimmy Fusco, Allen Hopkins, and of course the great Efryn Reyes.

Efren is the only one of those I've seen enough of to have an opinion, but I've seen Shannon create a bunch of awesome turn-arounds.

 

[Artie Bodendorfer]

I too am fascinated and curious about that spot. Looking at it from Artie's perspective, if he liked it, I'm sure he figured to do well at it, that's for sure. He never made stupid games. In fact he stated that they both "loved the game". My guess is that Artie was comfortable with the room and the equipment, whereas Ronnie was not as familiar with those. He realized that giving RA the breaks was worth at least two balls to RA, thereby effectively making their game Artie getting 9-8. Artie probably figured that since no one could spot him at 1P at that time, he had another advantage.

RA probably figured the same about the value of the break, and, that since he could give almost any human alive 9-8 in those days, he had the advantage over this "regional" player. I'm not sure when this contest was proposed, but RA was probably in his prime and flyin' high (in more ways than one), and was bowling everyone over with his offensive prowess.

It gives testament to Artie's fearsome play that RA could not get backed for that proposition. I imagine RA too was mystified.

My comments are pure speculations. There are probably other angles I haven't considered. But matching up is a huge part of 1P, so it's interesting to try to understand the thinking behind famous props.

I hope Artie will come on here and share with us some of his thinking about the spot that was proposed. Also Cardone could probably shed some meaningful light on that spot with those two players, since he knew both of them, and has seasoned knowledge about handicapping. I don't know if Ghost was around at that time. If so he might share his reflections.

~Doc[/Ronnie Figured that him getting all the breaks would get him the first shot. And him getting the first shot would be worth more than 3 balls. Witch is not bad thinking. If that's what will happen. Ronnie never in his life played anyone who played my style. And his thinking is correct.

Because Ronnie even said he gave Jersy red one ball. And I played Jersy red 9 to 7 Jersy red gets all the brakes. Witch in is a better spot for me than
getting 11 to 8 from Ronnie. Because if Ronnie is giving me 11 to 8 and Ronnie gives Jersy Red one ball Jersy red should be playing me 10 to 8 not 9 to 7 .So it breaks down Jersy Red is giving me a better game than Ronnie.

According to the game Ronnie is giving me. Hardly nobody will see that. Because all people will see is one ball difference. The one ball difference is correct.Put the difference is to how many balls I have to go to.So if Ronnie would play me the same game as Jersy red according to how Ronnie and Jersy red play. Ronnie would have to play me 10 to 7 not 11 to 8 and the 10 to 7 is a better game for me than 10 to 7.

Very few people will see this. And another reason I loved the game is because I new Ronnie had no patience and he would be easier for me to bracke down. And he would get frustrated because he wouldn't get to shot at any shots. Witch he never seen. Ronnie never seen any one play that didn't give up shots or make mistakes. Because nobody plays that style. If you would ask Bugs what would happen in that session. Bugs would say Ronnie would throw in the tole and quite.

What people don't no that when I played a frezze out that I played a different style. Because I didn't have to worry about my opponent quitting after a couple of games. And I would go into my gear. Not giving up a shot or letting my opponent get on offense.I would play the full game without making a mistake. And nobody ever seen that kind of game.

And if I play that way by the game.My opponents would all quite.Because they would see that they couldn't get a shot. And nobody can even make one ball unless they get a shot. And this is not playing Chicago squeeze. Its way stronger.One more comment nobody would have wanted to give Ronnie all the brakes no matter how many balls he would give them. Because they new he would get the first shot. Like he figured. That would not have happened with me.

And to make it clear. I had no clue how the table or balls would play. Because I never played on the table. And I never played with Ronnies balls and cue ball. I wanted to play not because of the table balls or the spot. I wanted to play because I new I could brake him down. Witch nobody knows but you. Not even billy Smith.And Billy Incardon will probable say two balls. And one last thing. Eleven to 8 is not three balls. IF 8 to 7 is one ball than 9 to 6 is three balls. not 11 to 8. But again people don't see that and don't understand it.

IF you want to confuse everybody ask them first is 11 to 8 three balls?then ask then what is 9 to 6. ? But don't give it all at once. Because they can see that this does not add up. Even though both spots is three balls. And don't say anything and ask SJD how many balls is Ronnie spotting Artie if he is giving him 11 to 8 and he gets all the brakes. After he replies than ask him how many balls would he be getting if the game was 9 to 6. If he says the same thing. You no he doesn't no what he is saying. Because its very clear that 9 to 6 is better than 11 to 8. For the player getting the spot.

I hope I explained it. I no the older I get the harder explaining becomes. Its a lot of work. But you have always been serious about learning the game. So I feel I owe the respect to answer your question.I hope you can see the difference. And why I loved the game.I loved the game not because of the spot. I loved the game because of who the player was.

 

[gulfportdoc]

... I hope I explained it. I no the older I get the harder explaining becomes. Its a lot of work. But you have always been serious about learning the game. So I feel I owe the respect to answer your question.I hope you can see the difference. And why I loved the game.I loved the game not because of the spot. I loved the game because of who the player was.

Artie, this is EXACTLY the kind of reply I was looking for! It's extremely important and rewarding to understand the reasoning behind handicapping spots from the perspective of an expert. What you have written is valuable in many ways.

The shades of differences you've pointed out in spots, and other considerations are very important.

A small note: When you stated, "According to the game Ronnie is giving me. Hardly nobody will see that. Because all people will see is one ball difference. The one ball difference is correct.Put the difference is to how many balls I have to go to.So if Ronnie would play me the same game as Jersy red according to how Ronnie and Jersy red play. Ronnie would have to play me 10 to 7 not 11 to 8 and the 10 to 7 is a better game for me than 10 to 7.", I think you meant to say that "10 to 7 is better for me than 11 to 8".

I've got to get to work, but I'm going to digest your post more, and offer more comments....

THANK-YOU!

~Doc

 

[petie]

I too am fascinated and curious about that spot. Looking at it from Artie's perspective, if he liked it, I'm sure he figured to do well at it, that's for sure. He never made stupid games. In fact he stated that they both "loved the game". My guess is that Artie was comfortable with the room and the equipment, whereas Ronnie was not as familiar with those. He realized that giving RA the breaks was worth at least two balls to RA, thereby effectively making their game Artie getting 9-8. Artie probably figured that since no one could spot him at 1P at that time, he had another advantage.

RA probably figured the same about the value of the break, and, that since he could give almost any human alive 9-8 in those days, he had the advantage over this "regional" player. I'm not sure when this contest was proposed, but RA was probably in his prime and flyin' high (in more ways than one), and was bowling everyone over with his offensive prowess.

It gives testament to Artie's fearsome play that RA could not get backed for that proposition. I imagine RA too was mystified.

My comments are pure speculations. There are probably other angles I haven't considered. But matching up is a huge part of 1P, so it's interesting to try to understand the thinking behind famous props.

I hope Artie will come on here and share with us some of his thinking about the spot that was proposed. Also Cardone could probably shed some meaningful light on that spot with those two players, since he knew both of them, and has seasoned knowledge about handicapping. I don't know if Ghost was around at that time. If so he might share his reflections.

~Doc[/Ronnie Figured that him getting all the breaks would get him the first shot. And him getting the first shot would be worth more than 3 balls. Witch is not bad thinking. If that's what will happen. Ronnie never in his life played anyone who played my style. And his thinking is correct.

Because Ronnie even said he gave Jersy red one ball. And I played Jersy red 9 to 7 Jersy red gets all the brakes. Witch in is a better spot for me than
getting 11 to 8 from Ronnie. Because if Ronnie is giving me 11 to 8 and Ronnie gives Jersy Red one ball Jersy red should be playing me 10 to 8 not 9 to 7 .So it breaks down Jersy Red is giving me a better game than Ronnie.

According to the game Ronnie is giving me. Hardly nobody will see that. Because all people will see is one ball difference. The one ball difference is correct.Put the difference is to how many balls I have to go to.So if Ronnie would play me the same game as Jersy red according to how Ronnie and Jersy red play. Ronnie would have to play me 10 to 7 not 11 to 8 and the 10 to 7 is a better game for me than 10 to 7.

Very few people will see this. And another reason I loved the game is because I new Ronnie had no patience and he would be easier for me to bracke down. And he would get frustrated because he wouldn't get to shot at any shots. Witch he never seen. Ronnie never seen any one play that didn't give up shots or make mistakes. Because nobody plays that style. If you would ask Bugs what would happen in that session. Bugs would say Ronnie would throw in the tole and quite.

What people don't no that when I played a frezze out that I played a different style. Because I didn't have to worry about my opponent quitting after a couple of games. And I would go into my gear. Not giving up a shot or letting my opponent get on offense.I would play the full game without making a mistake. And nobody ever seen that kind of game.

And if I play that way by the game.My opponents would all quite.Because they would see that they couldn't get a shot. And nobody can even make one ball unless they get a shot. And this is not playing Chicago squeeze. Its way stronger.One more comment nobody would have wanted to give Ronnie all the brakes no matter how many balls he would give them. Because they new he would get the first shot. Like he figured. That would not have happened with me.

And to make it clear. I had no clue how the table or balls would play. Because I never played on the table. And I never played with Ronnies balls and cue ball. I wanted to play not because of the table balls or the spot. I wanted to play because I new I could brake him down. Witch nobody knows but you. Not even billy Smith.And Billy Incardon will probable say two balls. And one last thing. Eleven to 8 is not three balls. IF 8 to 7 is one ball than 9 to 6 is three balls. not 11 to 8. But again people don't see that and don't understand it.

IF you want to confuse everybody ask them first is 11 to 8 three balls?then ask then what is 9 to 6. ? But don't give it all at once. Because they can see that this does not add up. Even though both spots is three balls. And don't say anything and ask SJD how many balls is Ronnie spotting Artie if he is giving him 11 to 8 and he gets all the brakes. After he replies than ask him how many balls would he be getting if the game was 9 to 6. If he says the same thing. You no he doesn't no what he is saying. Because its very clear that 9 to 6 is better than 11 to 8. For the player getting the spot.

I hope I explained it. I no the older I get the harder explaining becomes. Its a lot of work. But you have always been serious about learning the game. So I feel I owe the respect to answer your question.I hope you can see the difference. And why I loved the game.I loved the game not because of the spot. I loved the game because of who the player was.

Yes, I'm confused. I think that 11 to 8 and 9 to six are both 3 balls but 9 to six is a better game for the guy getting the spot because he only has to make 6 balls which is easier to do than making 8 balls. The guy giving the spot has to make 3 more balls than the other guy regardless but the game is shorter at 9 to 6 which makes it tougher to get more balls. To explain what is a tougher game for the guy giving the spot 100 to 97 or 4 to 1? Obviously its the latter even though they both call for the player giving the spot to make 3 more balls than the other guy.

 

[mr3cushion]

Yes, I'm confused. I think that 11 to 8 and 9 to six are both 3 balls but 9 to six is a better game for the guy getting the spot because he only has to make 6 balls which is easier to do than making 8 balls. The guy giving the spot has to make 3 more balls than the other guy regardless but the game is shorter at 9 to 6 which makes it tougher to get more balls. To explain what is a tougher game for the guy giving the spot 100 to 97 or 4 to 1? Obviously its the latter even though they both call for the player giving the spot to make 3 more balls than the other guy.

Petie, maybe you're not considering in the 11-8 game, balls are going to be spotted in the course of the game. And it's a lot harder for a the player giving the spot to get 11 as opposed to only having to get 9, in the 9-6 game, also NO balls spotted relating to the spot.

 

[straightback]

Yes, I'm confused. I think that 11 to 8 and 9 to six are both 3 balls but 9 to six is a better game for the guy getting the spot because he only has to make 6 balls which is easier to do than making 8 balls. The guy giving the spot has to make 3 more balls than the other guy regardless but the game is shorter at 9 to 6 which makes it tougher to get more balls. To explain what is a tougher game for the guy giving the spot 100 to 97 or 4 to 1? Obviously its the latter even though they both call for the player giving the spot to make 3 more balls than the other guy.

I concur with your view, Petie. There's two things at work here: (1) the ball count differential; and (2) how attractive the game is to the players having considered their skill. These are two very different things.

 

[lll]

artie
thank you for your responce.
im not alone in wishing you would post more often
i know i learn alot from you
larry

 

[baby huey]

I enjoyed this post so much. Players such as Artie come around only once in a while and in One Pocket, they just understand something unique about how to play the game. Back in my drinking days (1970's) and his I might add, Ed Kelly told me that Rags Fitzpatrick was the best one pocket player he ever saw. Ed told me that if you played Rags for a week straight, you might not ever get an open shot to your hole. Apparently, he beat players, great players, twenty or thirty games in a row. Marvin Henderson (RIP) told me the same thing about Rags. He tried to play him in Washington DC around 1960 and got drilled. Marvin was no slouch in one pocket.