Disturbing balls prior to shooting

[southavenrecreationcenter]

Is there a defined rule about the number of balls that have to be moved prior to shooting for it to be a 1 ball foul, as with the bridge, etc. If 2 or more balls are moved prior to shooting, do they remain in their new position or are they returned to their original position. I moved 2 balls with the rake prior to shooting, my opponent said if I had only moved one it was no foul and he had the right to leave it or return it to old position, but since I moved 2 it was a foul and they stayed in their new position.
Does the same rule apply "in the act of shooting" as prior to shooting?
Please help me before we have to start playing ALL BALL FOULS as in snooker

 

[NH Steve]

Our rules reference the general rules as published by the BCA http://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55. According to those rules, unless the moved balls effect the shot, it is not a foul and please note these rules don't say anything about how many balls are moved:

1.16.1 CUE BALL FOULS ONLY
When a referee is presiding over a match, it is a foul for a player to touch any ball (cue ball or object ball) with the cue, clothing, body, mechanical bridge or chalk, before, during or after a shot. However, when a referee is not presiding over a game, it is not a foul to accidentally touch stationary balls located between the cue ball and the shooter while in the act of shooting. If such an accident occurs, the player should allow the Tournament Director to restore the object balls to their correct positions. If the player does not allow such a restoration, and a ball set in motion as a normal part of the shot touches such an unrestored ball, or passes partly into a region originally occupied by a disturbed ball, the shot is a foul. In short, if the accident has any effect on the outcome of the shot, it is a foul. In any case, the Tournament Director must be called upon to restore the positions of the disturbed balls as soon as possible, but not during the shot. It is a foul to play another shot before the Tournament Director has restored any accidentally moved balls. At the non-shooting player’s option, the disturbed balls will be left in their new positions. In this case, the balls are considered restored, and subsequent contact on them is not a foul. It is still a foul to make any contact with the cue ball whatsoever while it is in play, except for the normal tip-to-ball contact during a shot.

 

[LSJohn]

Our rules reference the general rules as published by the BCA http://bca-pool.com/general/custom.asp?page=55. According to those rules, unless the moved balls effect the shot, it is not a foul and please note these rules don't say anything about how many balls are moved:

Yikes. Never heard that before. Every match and every tournament I have played using "cue ball fouls only" has gone by the more-than-one-ball=foul standard.

Call the tournament director to restore balls? Ridiculous unless there is a dispute between the players.

Does anyone play that way? I can accidentally move the whole rack with the bridge while getting ready to shoot and it's not a foul? And then we're supposed to call someone who wasn't there to put the balls back?

 

[gulfportdoc]

I think the rule of thumb is whether or not the balls moved can be easily restored. Notice that the rule sates "restore the object balls" (plural).

Oftentimes it's easy to back away and have the opponent replace the balls to their position. Once in awhile there's an accident that disturbs so many balls that it would be difficult to recreate their positions. In that case, a foul call is appropriate.

And when the balls are moved during a shot that somehow interfere with the outcome of the course of the shot, then it's an obvious foul.

I've never seen a written rule that mentions moving more than one ball.

~Doc

 

[southavenrecreationcenter]

to John

to John

So you are saying "more than one ball" standard. Do the balls stay in their new position. Also, is this your "prior to the shot rule" and "in the act rule" the same assuming the balls "moved" didn't affect the outcome of the shot.
Can you please tell me where to read this "more than one ball" rule.
thanks.....Just trying to reach a standard for my room.

 

[southavenrecreationcenter]

Age is a factor

Age is a factor

This was ROSEY AND MYSELF, both being 70, and used to playing under the OLD STANDARD...HINT...playing a FLAT BELLY that was inposing the "more than one ball" rule.

 

[lll]

this is from the derby city rules
hope this helps


Cue Ball Fouls Only: Accidentally touching or disturbing a single object ball is not a foul unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot. See a referee for advice if you think this has happened. Otherwise, the opponent has the option to restore the disturbed ball or leave it in position. If the offending player attempts to restore the disturbed ball without giving their opponent the restoration option, it is a foul.



Accidentally touching or disturbing 2 or more object balls is a foul, and there is no restoration option for the disturbed balls.

 

[gulfportdoc]

I looked up the rule they use at the DCC. They DO make the distinction of moving one ball in contrast to moving more than one:

Cue Ball Fouls Only: Accidentally touching or disturbing a single object ball is not a foul unless the disturbed ball has an effect on the outcome of the shot. See a referee for advice if you think this has happened. Otherwise, the opponent has the option to restore the disturbed ball or leave it in position. If the offending player attempts to restore the disturbed ball without giving their opponent the restoration option, it is a foul.

Accidentally touching or disturbing 2 or more object balls is a foul, and there is no restoration option for the disturbed balls.

My guess is that they adopted a rule at the DCC in order to avoid any argument. One ball = no foul; two or more = foul.

So the DCC differs from the BCA. I couldn't find the applicable rule in the WPA rule sets. I prefer the BCA rule, but admittedly the DCC rule is simpler.

~Doc

 

[LSJohn]

So you are saying "more than one ball" standard. Do the balls stay in their new position. Also, is this your "prior to the shot rule" and "in the act rule" the same assuming the balls "moved" didn't affect the outcome of the shot.

First, Bill, I am one of the less experienced players here, so many guys here are better qualified to answer. All I can do is tell you what I've seen and what I think is best.

I've always played that the non-offending player has the option regarding whether to restore the single moved ball. More-than-one is a foul and the balls are not restored. It doesn't matter whether the multiple balls are moved before, during or after the shot. If the multiple balls are judged to have been moved intentionally, it is loss of game or loss of match depending on how the TD rules ("Unsportsmanlike conduct".) As mentioned above, if even a single ball is moved while the shot is in progress and its movement affects the outcome of the shot, it is a foul.

Can you please tell me where to read this "more than one ball" rule.
thanks.....Just trying to reach a standard for my room.

If you check the website for the Derby City Classic you will find the rule as I have described it displayed there on the one pocket page.

edit:

Ah, I see Doc already answered re DCC. That's the way I like to play and have always played (in the 5 years or so I've been playing 1P.)

 

[NH Steve]

The OnePocket.org Official rules have not been updated for about 10 years, and in that time, there has definitely been more of a trend toward calling object ball fouls -- including the rule about it being a foul when two or more object balls are involved now used at DCC and I believe at the US Open One Pocket (when it was last held, lol).

A while back I suggested adopting a "One Touch Warning -- All Ball Fouls" idea. The idea being, any moved object ball that occurs in the act of shooting or picking up your hand (i.e. during or after you have released your shot) is a foul, regardless of one or more balls being moved. But the One Touch Warning aspect is that if you do touch or move one or more balls prior to releasing your shot -- then it is just a warning, and the balls are restored before the shooter proceeds. If it happens again when the shooter gets down to shoot -- even if it is prior to releasing their shot -- then it is a foul. I would suggest that when a player is warned, at that point the opponent might want to call an independent observer over to make the call to avoid a dispute.

The idea being to reward/punish a player by acknowledging the difficulty of shooting cleanly in some situations -- maybe when the opponent left them in that situation on purpose, for example.