Payball

[Shag_Fu]

Ive heard a lot about the game called payball, on here and in books. I havent however, seen any good definition as to how it is supposed to be played or the rules. Any help is always appreciated.

 

[OldHasBeen]

PayBall is..........

PayBall is..........

6-Ball played on a 5 X 10 snooker table. Every ball has a value (say $100) and the 6 Ball is worth $200. It was usually played multi handed like a ring game. There was a lot of big action back in the late '70's with this game and (IMO) Denny Searcy was the best I ever saw.
I saw Louie run 4 racks in Detroit against Red, Jimmy Reid, Ritchie Ambrose & (I think) Billy Johnson. Or maybe it was Cole Dixon. Some of the straightest shooting I've ever seen.
It seemed like at almost every tournament (for a period of time) a PayBall game would happen. Denny Searcy loved it.

TY & GL

 

[gulfportdoc]

I didn't realize Payball and 6-ball were the same game. During the late 60's and into the early 70's, when the World Championships were held in Los Angeles at the Elks Club by MacArthur Park, there was always a ring 6-ball game going in the Elks bar after hours. They played on a 9' table, and I believe it was $50 on the 6-ball only, which was a substantial stake in 1969! With guys like Ronnie Allen, Eddie Kelly, Wimpy Lassiter, etc., strings of runs were pretty common. Naturally, with the cocktails flowing, the woofing and high jinks were incredible. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that one year even Irving Crane got involved, although he rarely gambled.

Doc

 

[OldHasBeen]

The big dif is.........

The big dif is.........

I didn't realize Payball and 6-ball were the same game. During the late 60's and into the early 70's, when the World Championships were held in Los Angeles at the Elks Club by MacArthur Park, there was always a ring 6-ball game going in the Elks bar after hours. They played on a 9' table, and I believe it was $50 on the 6-ball only, which was a substantial stake in 1969! With guys like Ronnie Allen, Eddie Kelly, Wimpy Lassiter, etc., strings of runs were pretty common. Naturally, with the cocktails flowing, the woofing and high jinks were incredible. I could be wrong, but it seems to me that one year even Irving Crane got involved, although he rarely gambled.

Doc

There is money on every ball - ergo - PAYBALL.
I also think that is why it was played mostly on a 5 X 10 Snooker table.
Much Harder!

TY & GL

 

[NH Steve]

Does anyone know if there will be a snooker table at the DCC this year? I know they have 3c tables coming.

Would a 9' table set up with about 3" pockets work for Payball or Golf?

 

[suki]

Lets go back farther

Lets go back farther

There is money on every ball - ergo - PAYBALL.
I also think that is why it was played mostly on a 5 X 10 Snooker table.
Much Harder!

TY & GL

Forget the 5x10, I and my buddy One Eye Hank Hurst killed the (payball) game but we called it pink ball on the 6x12. No 5x10 Maybe that was a West Coast thing. We beat up all those champions at times at Cochran's in the late 50's. Hank died way before his time and could shoot the lights out, we both just didn't have a lot of money until we beat those guys from the south like Ronnie, and Richie.lol. I still laugh to this day when Bucktooth chased Hank around the room throwing snooker balls at him after being stiffed. Those were the days.

 

[jnav447]

They played an almost continuously-running pay ball (or pink ball as they called it, cause the snooker 6-ball was the $ ball) game on a 6X12 at Cochrane's in the 60's, but I remember em playing with 3 balls. Denny Searcy was THE MAN as OHB alluded to (he played the meanest game of 6X12 golf I ever saw - what a great game that is!). Speaking of Bucktooth, what a character, seemed like he always had $30,000 in his pocket, and more where that came from. Is he still with us - if so, anyone know what he's up to?

 

[OldHasBeen]

6 X 12 Are The Best!

6 X 12 Are The Best!

I've only really seen one 6 X 12 snooker table and that was at the bowling alley on Collins ave. in Miami. I'll never forget that I had a shot straight in the side and I needed a bridge.

TY & GL

 

[gulfportdoc]

Speaking of Bucktooth, what a character, seemed like he always had $30,000 in his pocket, and more where that came from. Is he still with us - if so, anyone know what he's up to?

Either John Henderson or Sactown Tom could confirm for us, but I believe Bucktooth still has a room in Manteca, Calif., and also a jewelry store. What a character! He showed up at a tournament in San Francisco one year toting a one-piece house cue. He was telling everyone to look at his "poolcue case", which was a piece of Scotch tape over the tip...

Doc

 

[suki]

Still kicking and woofin

Still kicking and woofin

They played an almost continuously-running pay ball (or pink ball as they called it, cause the snooker 6-ball was the $ ball) game on a 6X12 at Cochrane's in the 60's, but I remember em playing with 3 balls. Denny Searcy was THE MAN as OHB alluded to (he played the meanest game of 6X12 golf I ever saw - what a great game that is!). Speaking of Bucktooth, what a character, seemed like he always had $30,000 in his pocket, and more where that came from. Is he still with us - if so, anyone know what he's up to?

He remodeled his pool room in Manteca, don't know how it is doing but he always has his gold to deal with. I think they finally caught the people that robbed him and threatened him and his wife and son after getting away with a bunch of cash. He still loves action and will go to one in 1p with anyone. lol
I was surprised I did not see him in Reno this year.

 

[jazznpool]

Steve, Golf or payball needs to be played on an 5x10 American snooker table at the very least. For golf it helps if the pockets have been tightened up a bit. I like payball or liability on a standard 5x10 Gold Crown American snooker table. Payball or liability on a restrictive 5x10 sucks--too difficult to pocket balls and play shape to get a run going.

Martin

Does anyone know if there will be a snooker table at the DCC this year? I know they have 3c tables coming.

Would a 9' table set up with about 3" pockets work for Payball or Golf?

 

[100andout]

How do you play golf? I've played alot of snooker, and 9ball with pool balls! on a 6'x12' snooker table, but never heard of golf?...curious.......Gerry

 

[Shorty]

How do you play golf? I've played alot of snooker, and 9ball with pool balls! on a 6'x12' snooker table, but never heard of golf?...curious.......Gerry

Oh Gerry...tisk tisk...I would be more than happy to teach you golf sometime...now let's see...how much should I charge for the lessons? HA HA

Shorty

 

[Shag_Fu]

Thanks everyone for the input. There arent any big snooker tables here in central illinois anymore, but for my speed a 4.5x9 would do okay. I have a lot of trouble getting a decent 1p game anymore. There used to be a guy thats all he would play, but he shot himself. We play a lot of ring games, preatty much all 10-ball or banks. but they play no slop on a double which is nice. Im in a bit of a slump right now, so I try to play new games get my mind off other things. Thanks all for your help.

 

[gulfportdoc]

"Golf"

"Golf"

How do you play golf? I've played alot of snooker, and 9ball with pool balls! on a 6'x12' snooker table, but never heard of golf?...curious.......Gerry

It's usually played on either a 10' or a 12' snooker table. Each player has his own numbered ball, which is predetermined by lot. It can be played by 2 to 8 players or more. The player with the 1 ball spots it on the footspot, and shoots the breakshot with the cueball placed anywhere in the "D" ring. He tries to make his ball in the first of six holes (pockets)-- usually one of the head corner pockets. If he should make it, his ball is again placed on the footspot, the cueball stays where it lays, then he shoots for the second pocket (usually the side pocket on the same side as the #1 hole. He continues shooting until he misses. If he should be a wizard, and run all six holes, he'd win. This is an exceedingly rare occurence!

The second player then spots the 2 ball and cueball, and goes through the same routine. Once all players have played their first inning from the break, the cueball is played where it lays for the remainder of the game. If there is a cueball scratch, the cueball can be spotted anywhere in the D.

Two things make the game interesting: The first is that oftentimes several players will be shooting for the same hole, so it can get pretty crowded in front of any given pocket. The other is that every player has to guard against leaving a makeable shot for the player who follows them ("selling out"), since the one who sells out usually pays double to the winner. This demands cautious strategy. Each shot requires careful positioning of both the object and the cueball.

The game is usually played for a stake plus an amount for fouls ("hickeys"). So the stakes might be, say, $5 from each player to the winner, plus 25 cents for each hickey from each player. Naturally some play for much higher stakes.

There is a lot more to the game, but these are the basic points.

Doc

 

[jrhendy]

Golf

Golf

There are similarities in the mindset to play one pocket and golf. Both games can be played very well by very conservative players. THe best players of course have a combination of both. The golf and liability games on "Big Bertha" in Bellflower over the years busted many top pool players who just couldn't get the table down. While I played all games, and was never a champion at any of them, I played very good golf. Grady beat me in Bellflower many years ago, Mexican Barney (who was the best to come out of LA) beat me on a 6 x 12 and a 5 x 10, and "Cigar" Sam Jones beat me in Denver at the Family Fun Center on a 5 x 10 around 20 years ago. Not many losers playing golf in between. The rules are different everywhere you go and some go clockwise and some go the other way. Some of the rules help the weaker players, which makes for a good ring game. I would come out of retirement if there was a good golf game near the Sacramento area. They play at Kim Davenport's place in Modesto, CA., but that is on a 5 x 10 and an hour and a half away from me. I would certainly lose the first few times I played. Kim and I bet it up pretty good when I lived in Modesto at the time he opend Championship Billiards. Most of us oldtimers in CA started out playing snooker on a 5 x 10 before we started playing pool. The mention of a golf game woke me up a little. Somebody in Sacramento put in a snooker table and I'll be your best customer. Shorty, I played golf with Aaron, who plays in a wheelchair, quite a few years ago at Shooters in So. CA., and he had me stuck pretty good before I wiggled loose. I know you also play one pocket, so you might agree about the same line of thinking in both games.

 

[gulfportdoc]

There are similarities in the mindset to play one pocket and golf.

Well you know, you're absolutely right about that, John. VERY similar game too, except that your opponent's (the guy who follows you) pocket keeps changing, you can't do much to the guy who precedes you, and everybody's only using one ball!! What a game...

Doc

 

[NH Steve]

I have a copy of Kenneth R. LeBar's book, Official Rules and Directives for Billiard "Golf", but I have never been around the genuine game to see it in action on 5x10 or 6x12 tables, so a lot of it is inscrutable to me. It has 20 pages of rules -- 92 different rule details! If there is interest, I could probably post some of it here on Onepocket.org.

Locally here we play a watered down variation of 'golf' on ordinary 9' tables called 'Around the World'. We use all 15 balls racked with the 1-ball in the middle and an open break. The object of the game is to make the 1-ball in each of the six pockets in specific order before your oponent does. Other balls may be called and shot anywhere for position, but once they are down, they stay down. The 1-ball goes back on the spot every time it goes down. It is either a partners or head-to-head game; not a 'ring' sort of game like you guys describe 'golf'. It does appear to share with 'golf' the rule that for a legal safety you only need to roll the cue ball into contact with an object ball -- you don't have to go to a rail (or maybe that isn't true in 'golf'?).

 

[jrhendy]

More On Golf

More On Golf

I have a copy of Kenneth R. LeBar's book, Official Rules and Directives for Billiard "Golf", but I have never been around the genuine game to see it in action on 5x10 or 6x12 tables, so a lot of it is inscrutable to me. It has 20 pages of rules -- 92 different rule details! If there is interest, I could probably post some of it here on Onepocket.org.

Locally here we play a watered down variation of 'golf' on ordinary 9' tables called 'Around the World'. We use all 15 balls racked with the 1-ball in the middle and an open break. The object of the game is to make the 1-ball in each of the six pockets in specific order before your oponent does. Other balls may be called and shot anywhere for position, but once they are down, they stay down. The 1-ball goes back on the spot every time it goes down. It is either a partners or head-to-head game; not a 'ring' sort of game like you guys describe 'golf'. It does appear to share with 'golf' the rule that for a legal safety you only need to roll the cue ball into contact with an object ball -- you don't have to go to a rail (or maybe that isn't true in 'golf'?).

There are many rules & types of golf, but as far as I know they are generally the same. Each player has to make the 6th hole first to win.There is also a related game that is a variation of golf called stimy, where you actualy count the strokes (each shot is a stroke) and pay each player who finishes in front of you so much for every stroke you are behind. I haven't seen or heard of anyone playing this in years, but it used to be fairly popular. There is also partners golf where each partner shoots the same ball or they can each have their own ball. And to make it a little more confusing, there is a game that was popular in the Los Angeles area years ago where each player had two balls. Frank Torres, a world class three cushion player and former U.S. Billiard Champion, was unbeatable at the room he worked at in North Hollywood playing with two balls each. One of the best golf players I ever watched was Glendale Johnny. He was an old time hustler and gambler who played at a room in the basement of a hotel in Glendale, CA. I never saw anyone play him even on the 6 x 12. Maybe someone out there remembers him and has some stories. Golf, like one pocket, lends itself to gambling because you can adjust the game by spotting holes or making more holes than your opponent. And, like one pocket, you can hide your true speed. Ronnie Allen was a very good golf player, two handed or one handed.

 

[100andout]

Thanx to everyone for the info. Sorry to say we never played anything like that up north. My only other question is, on the 6'x12' tables, did you use snooker balls, or pool balls?

I visited up north for the holidays, and that BIG old snooker table is still there at Classics Billiards in Phoenixville Pa. I had alot of good action on that table!

Shorty, Next time we get together, you can "teach" me a little about Golf......Gerry