Rules question

[poolandpokerman]

I was playing last night, I need one ball he needed 2. I make a ball and scratch. I spot 2 balls on the spot and the other ball is in the jaws in the upper pocket in the kitchen. My opponent is new to one pocket, very good 9 baller but no experience in one pocket. He does not want to break up the two balls on the spot, so he lags down to the end rail and back up and kicks the ball in the hole which is in the kitchen. I say it is a foul, however, there is a pro sweating the match so I as him, since this is the first time I have seen this happen. He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back. Well guys, whats the correct call here.
Thanks
Tom

 

[Jimmy B]

I was playing last night, I need one ball he needed 2. I make a ball and scratch. I spot 2 balls on the spot and the other ball is in the jaws in the upper pocket in the kitchen. My opponent is new to one pocket, very good 9 baller but no experience in one pocket. He does not want to break up the two balls on the spot, so he lags down to the end rail and back up and kicks the ball in the hole which is in the kitchen. I say it is a foul, however, there is a pro sweating the match so I as him, since this is the first time I have seen this happen. He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back. Well guys, whats the correct call here.
Thanks
Tom

Legal.............

 

[jlcomp45]

unless I'm picturing this in my head wrong - not sure how it could be a foul? he shot out of the kitchen - struck a rail - and legally pocketed a ball in a neutral pocket - that then spotted - right?

John

 

[sneakynito]

He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back.

That's correct.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Yep, legal shot Tom

 

[beatle]

legal , but i would have shot the force draw shot on the spot and tried to get out. but that shot is actually a great one.

 

[poolandpokerman]

Thanks for all the answers, I guess I need to be a little more creative. He did not sure the force draw because he did not know the shot, he is very new to one pocket. Thanks again.
Tom

 

[Scrzbill]

I was playing last night, I need one ball he needed 2. I make a ball and scratch. I spot 2 balls on the spot and the other ball is in the jaws in the upper pocket in the kitchen. My opponent is new to one pocket, very good 9 baller but no experience in one pocket. He does not want to break up the two balls on the spot, so he lags down to the end rail and back up and kicks the ball in the hole which is in the kitchen. I say it is a foul, however, there is a pro sweating the match so I as him, since this is the first time I have seen this happen. He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back. Well guys, whats the correct call here.
Thanks
Tom

My question is; why did you think it was not a legal shot?

 

[bobt64]

I'd have to say for a beginner that was a pretty good shot.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I was playing last night, I need one ball he needed 2. I make a ball and scratch. I spot 2 balls on the spot and the other ball is in the jaws in the upper pocket in the kitchen. My opponent is new to one pocket, very good 9 baller but no experience in one pocket. He does not want to break up the two balls on the spot, so he lags down to the end rail and back up and kicks the ball in the hole which is in the kitchen. I say it is a foul, however, there is a pro sweating the match so I as him, since this is the first time I have seen this happen. He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back. Well guys, whats the correct call here.
Thanks
Tom

The CB only has to cross the head string before hitting a ball - it doesn't have to hit a rail or anything else outside the kitchen. In other words, you could just masse the CB across the line and back.

Here's the rule from the World Pool Association website:

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String

When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact. If such a shot is intentional, it is unsportsmanlike conduct. The cue ball must either cross the head string or contact a ball in front of or on the head string or the shot is a foul, and the cue ball is in hand for the following player according to the rules of the specific game. If such shot is intentional, it is also unsportsmanlike conduct.

pj
chgo

 

[cityhall]

6.11 Bad Play from Behind the Head String

When the cue ball is in hand behind the head string, and the first ball the cue ball contacts is also behind the head string, the shot is a foul unless the cue ball crosses the head string before that contact.

Since it's legal to hit a ball that's just 1mm in front of the head string, clearly the cue ball doesn't have to entirely cross the line before contact. This raises the question of if it's legal to hit an otherwise illegal ball from the side in such a way that the edge of the cue ball is a hair over the string on contact.

Suppose you want to roll up on a ball on the rail but the ball is directly on the string and therefore illegal to hit toward a pocket. If you shoot sideways across the table, when contact is made, the edge of the cue ball will be past the head string. This would appear to be enough to make the shot legal as the rule is written even though the cue ball never went entirely across the line.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Since it's legal to hit a ball that's just 1mm in front of the head string, clearly the cue ball doesn't have to entirely cross the line before contact. This raises the question of if it's legal to hit an otherwise illegal ball from the side in such a way that the edge of the cue ball is a hair over the string on contact.

No part of the CB even has to reach the head string. If an OB is sitting on the head string it's officially outside the kitchen, and if the CB hits any part of that OB it's deemed to have legally hit a ball outside the kitchen. So the entire CB can stop 1 1/8" inside the kitchen (with no part of it ever reaching the head string) and still get a legal hit on the OB that's sitting on the head string.

Even with no OB on the head string, only the base of the CB needs to reach the head string before it can legally hit a ball inside the kitchen. This is because, like the OB above, when the CB's base is on the head string it's deemed to be outside the kitchen.

pj
chgo

 

[cityhall]

No part of the CB even has to reach the head string. If an OB is sitting on the head string it's officially outside the kitchen

My room plays that the OB has to be entirely over the line. But either way, my question comes up. You can hit an otherwise illegal ball by having the CB just barely go over the line unless they clarify that the rule means it has to go entirely over or hit a rail first.

This BCA rule says you have to hit a rail:

He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string.​

This one still has a problem: if the base of the OB is just behind the line, it's technically illegal to kick at it because the base of the CB wouldn't be above the head string before contact.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

My room plays that the OB has to be entirely over the line. But either way, my question comes up. You can hit an otherwise illegal ball by having the CB just barely go over the line unless they clarify that the rule means it has to go entirely over or hit a rail first.

This BCA rule says you have to hit a rail:

He may not shoot at any ball, the base of which is above the head string, unless he first shoots the cue ball below the head string and then by hitting a rail causes the cue ball to come back above the head string and hit the object ball. The base of the ball (the point of the ball touching the table) determines whether it is above or below the head string.​

This one still has a problem: if the base of the OB is just behind the line, it's technically illegal to kick at it because the base of the CB wouldn't be above the head string before contact.

Sure it could - if the CB hits the part of the OB that's outside the kitchen, then the base of the CB can also be outside the kitchen. You could also spin the CB off a side rail to bring it back to hit an OB that's entirely in the kitchen.

pj
chgo

 

[BrookelandBilly]

I was playing last night, I need one ball he needed 2. I make a ball and scratch. I spot 2 balls on the spot and the other ball is in the jaws in the upper pocket in the kitchen. My opponent is new to one pocket, very good 9 baller but no experience in one pocket. He does not want to break up the two balls on the spot, so he lags down to the end rail and back up and kicks the ball in the hole which is in the kitchen. I say it is a foul, however, there is a pro sweating the match so I as him, since this is the first time I have seen this happen. He says it is legal, as long as you go out of the kitchen and come back. Well guys, whats the correct call here.
Thanks
Tom

So now you have 3 ball on the spot? If so not a bad move for a novice. Your shot with 3 on the spot. Who won?

 

[beatle]

you can talk wpa rules all you like but go to most any pool room and gamble ,all the object ball must be ahead of the line or behind the line with the cue ball if shooting.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

you can talk wpa rules all you like but go to most any pool room and gamble ,all the object ball must be ahead of the line or behind the line with the cue ball if shooting.

That's probably true - which makes it ironic, I guess, that the first line in the Official One Pocket Rules says this:

Unless clearly contradicted below, general pocket billiards rules of play and etiquette apply to One Pocket, and complete General Rules are available from the World Pool-Billiard Association (WPA).

pj
chgo

 

[beatle]

true pat. in real life we have tournament rules and rules that everyone usually uses.

imagine if gambling and someone called loss of game for bad sportsmanship. how would that go over.

 

[lll]

fwiw
this is from csi rules
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1-36 Shooting with Ball in Hand Behind the Head String (AR p. 95)

1. When you have ball in hand behind the head string, it is a foul if the first ball contacted by the cue ball is behind the head string unless, before contacting that ball, you first shoot the cue ball past the head string and it contacts a cushion at a point below( TOWARDS THE FOOT RAIL MY EDIT ) the head string.
.......
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.......

HERE IS A LINK TO CSI RULES
http://www.playcsipool.com/bcapl-rules.html

 

[Patrick Johnson]

true pat. in real life we have tournament rules and rules that everyone usually uses.

imagine if gambling and someone called loss of game for bad sportsmanship. how would that go over.

lol

Hilarity would ensue. Or maybe gunplay.

pj
chgo