Rules Variations Checklist

[Patrick Johnson]

What rules are most likely to be different from one player to the next? What would a pre-matchup checklist look like?

Here’s one being discussed in another thread:

- how to determine if a ball’s in/out of the kitchen

What others?

pj
chgo

 

[12squared]

If a ball is made on the break, what happens?

3 foul rule?

Would you allow a break where the cueball does not hit a rail?

What constitutes a foul when cue and object balls are very close (i.e. DCC says 45 degrees no foul)? Same w/frozen to cueball?

 

[LSJohn]

What rules are most likely to be different from one player to the next? What would a pre-matchup checklist look like?

Here’s one being discussed in another thread:

- how to determine if a ball’s in/out of the kitchen

What others?

pj
chgo

45 degree rule, or not.
3 fouls -- if so, warning?
CB fouls only? If so, two balls? path of moved ball?
Touch CB with hand while spotting balls?
Drop chalk and it hits CB?
CB frozen to OB; shoot through?
Frozen to rail called? (I guess everyone says yes to this one.)

How far should we go with this?

 

[beatle]

cue ball fouls only and only when shooting.

re-do shots when an argument happens.
opponent gets to put balls back where he thinks they were.

opponent informs you before you shoot if you are going to break a rule.

 

[Jeff sparks]

I like the, “stick the butt of the cue in between the cue ball and the rail rule” when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, except I can’t remember which YMCA I was playing at when last I used it...

 

[12squared]

I like the, “stick the butt of the cue in between the cue ball and the rail rule” when the cue ball is frozen to the rail, except I can’t remember which YMCA I was playing at when last I used it...

I like this one, too . But one more comes to mind:

if playing cueball fouls only and you accidentally move a ball without it interfering w/play, does your opponent have the option to move it back or not, or must it be moved back to the original position w/no option?

 

[jay helfert]

What about jump cues and the three foul rule? Base of the ball determines in or out?

 

[NH Steve]

The idea of re-breaking if you make a ball on the break is the one new one in my mind. That NEVER came up in the past in my world.

The question of whether we are playing full ball or base of ball has always been the one ground rule question that I have heard most often.

To a lesser extent the other questions that I have heard are:
Are we playing three fouls loss of game?
Is an object ball knocked off the table a foul?

Part of the reason onepocket.org established the rules we have is to cut down on those questions -- at least for tournaments -- so players know what to expect and can get on with the game. The old BCA rules failed to address a lot of stuff, so lot's of questions made sense back in the day.

One Pocket tournaments already struggle with time over-runs for matches, which is a problem that is discouraging more tournaments. For that reason alone, it makes no sense to deviate from the 3 foul rules for tournaments -- or any other rules that would slow up the games even more (including re-racking if a ball is made on the break).

 

[NH Steve]

Jumping the cue ball off the table

Jumping the cue ball off the table

Off topic a bit, but rules related...

Greg Sullivan has told me at DCC he does not want players jumping the cue ball off the table (to prevent a game-winning hanging ball from scoring). He is leaning toward not allowing that, so a shooter's only recourse is to make the hanging ball and pocket scratch with the cue ball. I think a lot of room owners would be fine eliminating that rule from our official rules too.

 

[El Chapo]

Off topic a bit, but rules related...

Greg Sullivan has told me at DCC he does not want players jumping the cue ball off the table (to prevent a game-winning hanging ball from scoring). He is leaning toward not allowing that, so a shooter's only recourse is to make the hanging ball and pocket scratch with the cue ball. I think a lot of room owners would be fine eliminating that rule from our official rules too.

Wow that is great news.

You guys know how I feel, I think we need to change the rules somehow so that jumping a cb off the table, the worst blunder imaginable in pool, can not result in tactical advantage (because why do we want to reward "bad" shots so that players do them more often). But that by Mr Sullivan is certainly a good start.

 

[cincy_kid]

Off topic a bit, but rules related...

Greg Sullivan has told me at DCC he does not want players jumping the cue ball off the table (to prevent a game-winning hanging ball from scoring). He is leaning toward not allowing that, so a shooter's only recourse is to make the hanging ball and pocket scratch with the cue ball. I think a lot of room owners would be fine eliminating that rule from our official rules too.

Although I use jumping the CB off the table while making opponents game winning ball at the same time as much as the next guy but I would also be ok with elimintating it.

Heck, if I owned the pool table, I would not want anyone jumping on it period.

Back on topic, I think everyone pretty much covered it. The ones I always double check are:

- rack your own & make a ball on the break = re-rack or old school way?
- whole ball or base?
- move 2 or more balls a foul?
- accident ball moves - opponent has option to put i t back or leave it?

pretty much the main ones for me..

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

One pocket is a very unique game in that there is so much stack play, and corner hooking and thus corner play, plus illegally stroking and pinning a cue ball to a rail. These areas concern me for although common occurrences in OP there is little or no mention of these scenarios and just what is an illegal or legally executed stack play intentional or corner play and just what the penalty is. Although bcapl does have a ruling on corner play trapping.

Scenario 1; if the cue ball is near the rail and ob ball and I skim the ob and allow the cue to push stroke through and illegally pin the cb to the rail. Which actually is illegally trapping the cb by the ob ball putting the opponent in a very bad spot, for now the cb is frozen to the rail and now that rail is not alive for the cb. What is the penalty? For there is no clearly defined penalty, thus leaves much grey area not only for the players but also for a referee, especially when it comes to op.

Scenario 2; same scenario as 1 but in a pocket and you illegally pin the cb to the jaw cushion of the pocket. What is the penalty? The answer for 1&2 is that it "could" be deemed unsportsmanlike penalty, but what penalty? Why not have the penalty in place?

Scenario 3 stack play; my opponent has taken an intentional stack play and left the cb very close to an ob and I illegally push stroke the cb into the ob and continue to push the cb further into stack now leaving the cb buried within the stack! What is the penalty for illegally trapping the cb within the stack? "Possibly" Unsportsmanlike conduct, again very grey area, and currently never called, which amazes me especially in our current era of availability of knowledge and learning, internet and videos.

If we ever want to have this game of op get the respect and admiration that this most demanding of all games deserves then we have to eliminate allowing these illegal strokes and shots to occur. IMO these illegal accepted scenarios plus the lack of knowledge there of keeps OP from reaching the pinnacle of excellence it so justifiably deserves!

I seen Mosconi vs. Caras in which they were doing stack intentionals and then Mosconi did scenario 3 and just buried Caras, the ref. did not say a word. It is an interesting scenario for of course it is already a foul and loss of a point, so it is a given, but an illegally stroked intentional is much more severe and could result in illegally putting your opponent at a severe disadvantage, and thus should result in an option to have ball in hand! I've seen current day pros doing these illegal maneuvers.

Note; "Push Stroke" is a little known phenomena and lost to history but once was a BCA defined stroke. It is when the cb stays in contact with the cue tip as the stroke continues forward. So you can actually have a distance (example 6") from the cb to the ob and the cb can ride the cue tip all the way into the ob, or they could obviously be closer and the shooter continues to push. It can also be when the cb is frozen to ob and you gently lay the cue tip against the cb, pause the stroke, and then push through which is not one continuous stroke. This frozen ball scenario has to be stroked with one continuous stroke or it would be deemed illegal, this is little known. This is the one and only time and how this frozen cb to ob scenario can be illegally stroked, otherwise you can stroke this shot anyway you want, towards it or angled it does not matter! But push stroke is not to be confused with a "push shot", they are different, but carry the same results, illegal! Whitey

 

[darmoose]

Off topic a bit, but rules related...

Greg Sullivan has told me at DCC he does not want players jumping the cue ball off the table (to prevent a game-winning hanging ball from scoring). He is leaning toward not allowing that, so a shooter's only recourse is to make the hanging ball and pocket scratch with the cue ball. I think a lot of room owners would be fine eliminating that rule from our official rules too.

As with many rules changes, when being considered, this is problematic. There is no actual rule that says it is allowable to jump the CB off the table while pocketing a ball hanging in your opponents pocket.

There is a rule that says that a ball pocketed in you opponents pocket while committing a foul comes up. There is a rule that says that a CB off the table (as well as a OB) is a foul

Would you eliminate a CB off the table being deemed a foul? Would you just make an exception for the last ball on the table? Would you allow all balls pocketed in your opponents hole to stay down, regardless of a foul being committed? Anything you write will effect other parts of the game, unless you make a very situation specific rule, which is a bad habit to start cause it just complicates our rules.

It would be far more acceptable to me to simply call an unsportsmanlike foul, if the shooter didn't announce his intention to jump the CB, simply for safety's
sake, as I can't imagine any other reason to try to curtail ths shot.

I believe at least, that most one pocket players would rather keep this option alive and a part of our time honored rules and history. I see consideration of eliminating this option as a "watering down" of the games many intricate and sometimes subtle strategies.

JMHO

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

As with many rules changes, when being considered, this is problematic. There is no actual rule that says it is allowable to jump the CB off the table while pocketing a ball hanging in your opponents pocket.

There is a rule that says that a ball pocketed in you opponents pocket while committing a foul comes up. There is a rule that says that a CB off the table (as well as a OB) is a foul

Would you eliminate a CB off the table being deemed a foul? Would you just make an exception for the last ball on the table? Would you allow all balls pocketed in your opponents hole to stay down, regardless of a foul being committed? Anything you write will effect other parts of the game, unless you make a very situation specific rule, which is a bad habit to start cause it just complicates our rules.

It would be far more acceptable to me to simply call an unsportsmanlike foul, if the shooter didn't announce his intention to jump the CB, simply for safety's
sake, as I can't imagine any other reason to try to curtail ths shot.

I believe at least, that most one pocket players would rather keep this option alive and a part of our time honored rules and history. I see consideration of eliminating this option as a "watering down" of the games many intricate and sometimes subtle strategies.

JMHO

Like VP Agnew, call "fore" before his tee shot! LOL!!! Whitey

 

[LSJohn]

Off topic a bit, but rules related...

Greg Sullivan has told me at DCC he does not want players jumping the cue ball off the table (to prevent a game-winning hanging ball from scoring). He is leaning toward not allowing that, so a shooter's only recourse is to make the hanging ball and pocket scratch with the cue ball. I think a lot of room owners would be fine eliminating that rule from our official rules too.

I'm in favor of that. Just change 6.2 "Also, any balls pocketed in the opponent’s pocket on a stroke that ends in either a pocket scratch or with the cue ball off the table are not to be counted for the opponent" to remove cue-ball-off-table.

 

[lll]

It would be far more acceptable to me to simply call an unsportsmanlike foul, if the shooter didn't announce his intention to jump the CB, simply for safety's
sake, as I can't imagine any other reason to try to curtail ths shot.

I believe at least, that most one pocket players would rather keep this option alive and a part of our time honored rules and history. I see consideration of eliminating this option as a "watering down" of the games many intricate and sometimes subtle strategies.

JMHO

i agree with you 100%

 

[Patrick Johnson]

So far (I think):

- how to determine if a ball’s in/out of the kitchen
- If a ball is made on the break, what happens?
- Would you allow a break where the cueball does not hit a rail?
- What constitutes a foul when cue and object balls are very close (i.e. DCC says 45 degrees no foul)? Same w/frozen to cueball?
- 45 degree rule, or not.
- 3 fouls -- if so, warning?
- CB fouls only? If so, two balls? path of moved ball? only when shooting?
- if playing cueball fouls only and you accidentally move a ball without it interfering w/play, does your opponent have the option to move it back or not, or must it be moved back to the original position w/no option?
- Touch CB with hand while spotting balls?
- Drop chalk and it hits CB?
- Frozen to rail called? (I guess everyone says yes to this one.)
- re-do shots when an argument happens.
- opponent gets to put balls back where he thinks they were.
- opponent informs you before you shoot if you are going to break a rule.
- “stick the butt of the cue in between the cue ball and the rail rule” when the cue ball is frozen to the rail
- What about jump cues?
- re-breaking if you make a ball on the break
- Is an object ball knocked off the table a foul?
- what is an illegal or legally executed stack play intentional or corner play and just what the penalty is.

pj
chgo

 

[cincy_kid]

So far (I think):

- how to determine if a ball’s in/out of the kitchen
- If a ball is made on the break, what happens?
- Would you allow a break where the cueball does not hit a rail?
- What constitutes a foul when cue and object balls are very close (i.e. DCC says 45 degrees no foul)? Same w/frozen to cueball?
- 45 degree rule, or not.
- 3 fouls -- if so, warning?
- CB fouls only? If so, two balls? path of moved ball? only when shooting?
- if playing cueball fouls only and you accidentally move a ball without it interfering w/play, does your opponent have the option to move it back or not, or must it be moved back to the original position w/no option?
- Touch CB with hand while spotting balls?
- Drop chalk and it hits CB?
- Frozen to rail called? (I guess everyone says yes to this one.)
- re-do shots when an argument happens.
- opponent gets to put balls back where he thinks they were.
- opponent informs you before you shoot if you are going to break a rule.
- “stick the butt of the cue in between the cue ball and the rail rule” when the cue ball is frozen to the rail
- What about jump cues?
- re-breaking if you make a ball on the break
- Is an object ball knocked off the table a foul?
- what is an illegal or legally executed stack play intentional or corner play and just what the penalty is.

pj
chgo

I am not sure I have ever heard this one come up however it seems like it would from time to time (I don't recal if it ever has in one of my matches). What do people normally do if that happens? I would think my opponent has the option to put the CB back to where he thought it was and its still my shot, but maybe it's a CB foul and its my opponents shot?

 

[El Chapo]

One pocket is a special game. As far as cueballs flying off tables goes, in nine ball for instance i can see this happening from time to time in actual course of play with legit shots like the break.

Think about this for a moment, but if there is no jumping off the table strategy in one pocket, are balls ever really flying off the table?

Sure there are exceptions, but what i would say is pool balls during a game of one hole should only be going in certain, very specific places, like any sport. On the table and in the pockets. You can't drive a golf ball across a freeway and your opponent loses some advantage (for example). If a guy goes off the tanle in nine ball he has almost assuredly lost the game, at top levels anyway.

There is absolutely no problem with making a very severe penalty for balls coming off the table. Even a loss of game.That would be fine by me. A single game is not THAT huge of a measure. Nobody needs "launching balls off table" shots in their game to make the game exciting or for nostalgia.

Anyway, still think that is cool greg is takimg some kind of stand on that.

 

[beatle]

knocking any ball off the table where it stays off could be a 3 point penalty.
but why not just let the opponent put the shot back where he thinks it is and its a do over. and the opponent can see you are jacking up and stop you.

same with pushing into the stack. obvious intentional foul so opponent can put the balls back where he thinks they should be and you shoot over again.

this is for pool room play. tournaments are different as they are a game of rules but you need to have a ref. there and not your opponent as the ref.

for a tournament the director all he has to do is make a list of those kind of rules and the penalties he wants for them if he isnt lazy. such as, any ball off the table is loss of game. any rule clearly understood for all is fair for all.