Shot clock

[baby huey]

There is another matter to consider and that is the average age of our players. At least 50% of our players are over sixty years old. Many are at seventy plus years and that has to be taken into consideration when implementing a shot clock. I would say that this tournament could have almost been called a seniors event ala Houston. You want them to play faster? I remember the OLD song, "The Old Gray Mare She Ain't What She Used To Be." Let them play.........

 

[chicagomike]

:lol

You're all wrong, though.
Time limit of 2 beers/game.
With 1 Jameson extension per player.

Can we add an order of mozzerella sticks or chicken fingers to the mix please???

 

[catkins]

I shoot pretty fast so usually not an issue for me personally but it does bother me a bit to wait on slower players. Not saying they shouldn't take their time but it is something I am working on (my patience lol)..

I would be up for a shot clock or a 3/2 either way. i also really like the idea of the round robin thing and then one single elim bracket on Sunday. The round robin lends itself well to hanging out and getting to know more members but I do agree, we cant have tourneys finishing that darn late on Sundays, it's not practical for those of us who still work.

I love the idea of playing more people and getting to know more people thus I agree with this post. I don't care either way about a shot clock as I shoot to fast any way so don't mind when my opponent lets me relax a bit between shots.

 

[keoneyo]

Play the games with 11 balls when time gets short...Christmas tree rack. Whover gets 6 first wins.

No. _________________

 

[cabilliardclub]

Shot clock

Here is my 3 cents. Everything ran as planned and there were 8 players brought back on Sunday. Yes the play time was excessively long on most of those matches on Sunday. I would suggest bringing back 6 or even 4 back on Sunday. We could have played an extra round on Friday night and Saturday night. This would allow not changing any rules and let them play like one pocket should be played.

My other suggestion would be to do shot clock on last day of tournament. 2 minute clock and you have plenty of players out of the tournament that could run the clocks. Easy to do because you only have a couple of matches going at same time on Sunday.

Loved hosting and meeting all the members. Was blessed to host this event and my doors are always open to any members tournament in the future. And yes that means you to Kentucky.

Chris swart

 

[NH Steve]

People are looking for a cure to a problem that doesn’t exist unless you want to quit having amateurs tournaments. Amateur tournaments take longer. The ONLY change I would make would be a one set finals. The Grady rule is made up bull and doesn’t belong in a tournament with OP.Org in the title. We need to stick as close to the original rules of one pocket as possible or pretty soon the name won’t mean anything or stand for anything. I am opposed to any rule changes to the game of One Pocket. No where in the rules of one pocket does the “Grady Rule” appear.

The finals were a single race to 3. That was my decision, and also I gave the hot seat winner the first break (usual alternate break afterwards -- just as if they won the lag or coin toss), to give some reward to winning the hot seat. Everyone seemed to like that idea. Especially the pilot, who picked the best time ever to make the only ball I saw made on the break all weekend -- when it was his break at hill hill he made a ball on that final game break! And went in to run 3 more for a nice 4-0 jump in the ball count!!

 

[Nick B]

I love the idea of playing more people and getting to know more people thus I agree with this post. I don't care either way about a shot clock as I shoot to fast any way so don't mind when my opponent lets me relax a bit between shots.

We both shoot to fast. I think our match went 40 minutes. The second funniest thing all weekend was when you threw back at me my own line. 12" straight in for the game ball. "This one is in my repertoire".

 

[jay helfert]

There are so many more things i like better than the grady rule that has been brought up. Well, some of you know one of them and i wont even go there.

I would much rather just lower the ball count to win a game though. I think moving in play balls in a game of one pocket makes about as much sense as giving a golfer a four stroke penalty for making a hole in one. The entire game recolves around control and ball positioning. If you start just picking up balls it just isnt even one pocket anymore. Cmon what if there is a ball up there and the entire game hindges on its position for one player.

In that case you better be careful about moving balls up table. Remember, we are the ones who control the path of the balls. They are inanimate objects who just do our bidding. The game still revolves around control and ball positioning with the four ball rule, both players knowing that a ball could be spotted up.

I do understand if you like an up table game, as many do, but when considering match duration and scheduling in a tournament there can sometimes be other considerations worth thinking about. I do speak from the experience of seeing the "Grady" rule being used and how effective it was in speeding up the matches. It does work! As to whether the members of onepocket.org would ever use it, I think that would be up to a vote of the players prior to the tournament starting.

I also like the simple solution of starting earlier on the first day (say Noon) and playing the first round of the losers bracket that night. Those two things alone would have made a big difference on Saturday. We shouldn't have had any problem getting down to the final four players on Sunday (two on the winners and two on the losers). That way you would be playing the hot seat match and the losers bracket match at the same time on Sunday (maybe at Noon), and there would have been only three rounds of play that day. A single set final (a good idea by Steve) with the undefeated player getting the first break is also good. Now you might be done by 9 PM!

 

[catkins]

to me an up table game is the outcome of a great break. It generally happens for two reasons, either the non breaker has no offensive return or the breaker gets stuck under his balls in such a way that he is forced to start playing defensive. The problem I see from this is that up table games generally end up from great play that has no good answer but to duck in a super defensive way. This sort of game I have no problem with games taking along time due to excellent play in the early to mid game. when a game gets turned into an up table game just because one of the players steers it that way thinking there opponent will fold due to the lack of shots I have a little more problem with it and would be in more support of a rule that prevents nothing but moving balls out of play but I still think it would be a determent to games that reach there natural out come of well played game.

 

[HowardK]

Too Long?

Too Long?

I agree with Kentucky. Did I really say that? The game isn't broken. All the players I spoke with really enjoyed the tournament and each other. Yes, it did take until 5 am the next morning to complete, but that's just the way it was. An additional round could have been played on either Friday or Saturday and that may have sped things up. The single race to 3 for the finals with the hot seat getting the first break is a good idea. Unfortunately, there will always be complaints and how to improve tournaments. That's always the case.

But you can't take away the great time we all had. Kudos to Steve Booth and
Chris Swart of California Billiards for hosting a great event.

 

[El Chapo]

In that case you better be careful about moving balls up table. Remember, we are the ones who control the path of the balls. They are inanimate objects who just do our bidding. The game still revolves around control and ball positioning with the four ball rule, both players knowing that a ball could be spotted up.

I do understand if you like an up table game, as many do, but when considering match duration and scheduling in a tournament there can sometimes be other considerations worth thinking about. I do speak from the experience of seeing the "Grady" rule being used and how effective it was in speeding up the matches. It does work! As to whether the members of onepocket.org would ever use it, I think that would be up to a vote of the players prior to the tournament starting.

I also like the simple solution of starting earlier on the first day (say Noon) and playing the first round of the losers bracket that night. Those two things alone would have made a big difference on Saturday. We shouldn't have had any problem getting down to the final four players on Sunday (two on the winners and two on the losers). That way you would be playing the hot seat match and the losers bracket match at the same time on Sunday (maybe at Noon), and there would have been only three rounds of play that day. A single set final (a good idea by Steve) with the undefeated player getting the first break is also good. Now you might be done by 9 PM!

Golf is great to use as an analogy to one pocket because the positioning of the balls is paramount in each game, and where the balls lay was dictated by the control and tactics of the player.

If they wanted to speed up a golf tournament you would not see them doing something like move each golfer's ball some distance closer to the hole. That would be ridiculous, right? We ALL have to answer "yes" to that question because the entire premise of the game revolves around the positioning of the balls. You can't just pick up the balls and move them, because the game is based on playing them from the position the players have put them.

What youd see them do in golf to speed things up is play fewer holes or someing very logical like that.

Lets just say a guy has a really powerful ball or two positioned in the kitchen that it will be super difficult to not leave banks on, and both players are playing in the stack. One guy can just bump a ball into the kitchen and now those powerful balls the guy had there are eliminated? Or what if a guy has a dead ball at his hole from in the kitchen. I almost want to ask if this variation is a joke.

If tou need to speed up games of one pocket, what is wrong with two guys going to say 6 balls instead of 8? I am not saying it is perfect, but it us certainly better than picking up balls that are in play and moving them. If you need to go faster, make it to 5.

 

[Island Drive]

Playing one more round Fri. is a must. Being knocked out the first day in our One Pocket. org. events is not the same....as getting knocked out of a normal tournament. Catering to this aspect of our venue is not in play. You could even save on room if you were so inclined to leave early, but most of us are there also to hit balls with other new opponents and gamble a little. Having matches Late the first day works....why? Many of us would enjoy a nap after the all day travel ANYWAY . That would freshen up the player for his Sat. matches. It's a win win, the nap and a LATE match Fri. When you start the last round late, most of us would love it, late, rested and match play on a Fri. night perfect in my opinion. The ones that play the extra late round Fri. night, don't play till later in the day Saturday.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

We currently schedule 1 round on Friday, 4 rounds on Saturday and 5 rounds on Sunday. I've played in the first two and watched quite a bit of the last one. I can tell you for a fact that players take more time on shots the last day. Then you play your most rounds (5) on Sunday and you obviously have a problem. We have been extremely lucky not to go into 7-8-9 am with matches on the last day.

So pick your poison: Here should be a good starting point for a poll.

1. Stay as is and keep the unavoidable late finishes on Sunday
2. Schedule more rounds on Friday and or Saturday
3. Change the game with different rules and or shot clock.
4. Lower the loser side races

I really don't see any other options so why keep beating it into the ground and lets take a vote on it...

 

[darmoose]

We currently schedule 1 round on Friday, 4 rounds on Saturday and 5 rounds on Sunday. I've played in the first two and watched quite a bit of the last one. I can tell you for a fact that players take more time on shots the last day. Then you play your most rounds (5) on Sunday and you obviously have a problem. We have been extremely lucky not to go into 7-8-9 am with matches on the last day.

So pick your poison: Here should be a good starting point for a poll.

1. Stay as is and keep the unavoidable late finishes on Sunday
2. Schedule more rounds on Friday and or Saturday
3. Change the game with different rules and or shot clock.
4. Lower the loser side races

I really don't see any other options so why keep beating it into the ground and lets take a vote on it...

John,

While you are absolutely correct in your observations, the options you outline all will be problematic for some members, I think.

Serious consideration should be given to a Round Robin format that concludes with a SINGLE elimination, eight man finals on Sunday, that requires only three rounds.

Friday and Saturday play is eight groups where each player plays each other player in hs group, and every body gets to play all day long for two days. No one is eliminated until Sunday.

For a 32 player field, eight groups of 4 each could play 21 games per man in 16 hours of play (allowing 45 minutes per game).

No rule changes, shot clocks, or all night play required. Every player is quaranteed a minimum of 21 games. And, if the field grows to 40 or 48 it is easy to adjust with no problem.

It is too easy to create a "unique" and enjoyable tournament where everybody gets a lot of play, for us to be twisting ourselves and the game into pretzels like we are doing.

Something to think about.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

Sorry. Forgot the RR..

 

[ChicagoFats]

How about after 2 hours(or whatever that magic number is) the player play to 5 balls instead of 8?
This really doesn't change the integrity of the game and doesn't impact the way the game would be strategy wise.

 

[NH Steve]

John,

While you are absolutely correct in your observations, the options you outline all will be problematic for some members, I think.

Serious consideration should be given to a Round Robin format that concludes with a SINGLE elimination, eight man finals on Sunday, that requires only three rounds.

Friday and Saturday play is eight groups where each player plays each other player in hs group, and every body gets to play all day long for two days. No one is eliminated until Sunday.

For a 32 player field, eight groups of 4 each could play 21 games per man in 16 hours of play (allowing 45 minutes per game).

No rule changes, shot clocks, or all night play required. Every player is quaranteed a minimum of 21 games. And, if the field grows to 40 or 48 it is easy to adjust with no problem.

It is too easy to create a "unique" and enjoyable tournament where everybody gets a lot of play, for us to be twisting ourselves and the game into pretzels like we are doing.

Something to think about.

Or 6 flights with two wild cards. But in anycase like you said, 8 players for Sunday works if it is single elimination at that point. And you have a clear demarcation if there is any interest in a second chance tournament Sunday. I kind of like the idea of first a round robin, followed by a single elimination final series. All the round robin cuts into is some of the fun side action

But if it stays 3/3 and 32 players I really think we could have just played later Friday and Saturday, to get down to 4 players for Sunday instead of 8. Obviously 8 is too many for double elimination Sunday without making some rule or time clock changes. Even with less than 16 tables available I think the current format works with a more front loaded schedule, as long we started at 11 AM Friday -- if there are fewer than 16 tables.

I think the 4 PM Friday start is okay if we have 16 tables. As it was in CA, we just didn't start that 2nd one-loss round, even though we could have somewhere about 8 or 9 PM if I recall. Likewise in CA, we set the goal for Saturday at getting down to 8; in retrospect, that was a mistake, we should have played later to get down to 4. All that would have taken would have been one winner and one loser side round Saturday night, running simultaneously.

 

[crabbcatjohn]

If we elect Griffs or a similar venue that doesn't have 16 tables we will have even more problems than we have now. To me we have to face the fact that we have lots of different ideas and different view points by some very stubborn people. Myself included. Some are spot on and some don't have any clue. For me i would highly suggest we ask a well know professional tournament director that is also a member here and to assist and set the correct bracket scheduling once we pick a venue. This would save a lot of headaches, arguments and should clear up this mess. Having someone who has ran world class tournaments for 40 or 50 yrs would seem to be a valuable asset here. Why don't we use him...

 

[jay helfert]

Or 6 flights with two wild cards. But in anycase like you said, 8 players for Sunday works if it is single elimination at that point. And you have a clear demarcation if there is any interest in a second chance tournament Sunday. I kind of like the idea of first a round robin, followed by a single elimination final series. All the round robin cuts into is some of the fun side action

But if it stays 3/3 and 32 players I really think we could have just played later Friday and Saturday, to get down to 4 players for Sunday instead of 8. Obviously 8 is too many for double elimination Sunday without making some rule or time clock changes. Even with less than 16 tables available I think the current format works with a more front loaded schedule, as long we started at 11 AM Friday -- if there are fewer than 16 tables.

I think the 4 PM Friday start is okay if we have 16 tables. As it was in CA, we just didn't start that 2nd one-loss round, even though we could have somewhere about 8 or 9 PM if I recall. Likewise in CA, we set the goal for Saturday at getting down to 8; in retrospect, that was a mistake, we should have played later to get down to 4. All that would have taken would have been one winner and one loser side round Saturday night, running simultaneously.

I tend to agree with you Steve, except for one thing. Why do we need to wait until 4 PM to get started? Everyone is here the day before (and ready to play!), and there is no reason this event can't start at Noon. Once again, that gives us the opportunity to play an extra round on Friday, which is obviously much needed.

 

[Island Drive]

I tend to agree with you Steve, except for one thing. Why do we need to wait until 4 PM to get started? Everyone is here the day before (and ready to play!), and there is no reason this event can't start at Noon. Once again, that gives us the opportunity to play an extra round on Friday, which is obviously much needed.

The bottom line....naps and old guys ready to go on a Friday night late and ON Vacation ....are perfect for life, the late night mix works....we've ALL been there....done that . Just saying....