What Ball Did I Make? - Revisited

[One Pocket Ghost]

Ok, now that I've found out how lacking in good/sound judgment the proponents of banking the 4ball are <--- note smiley...I'M BACK WITH REINFORCEMENTS/MORE CALVARY, AND A NEW CHALLENGE...

You see, I feel a responsibility to Larry and others on here looking to learn...so I have to warn them not to listen to certain 'learned' forum members who say the bank on the 4ball is the right shot, and others who call my kick a "nutball shot"...

It took me until today to realize how bad of a choice the bank on the 4ball is, because unlike many forum members, I don't have a home table - and today is the first time I've made it back to the poolroom (Red Shoes) since last Friday to set it up...I lined up the 3 balls behind the spot, with the cueball in the front jaws of my pocket, and found, that...THAT BANK IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, EXTREMELY LOW PERCENTAGE, ALMOST UNMAKEABLE, ESPECIALLY WHILE HITTING IT WITH INSIDE ENGLISH TO GET THE CUEBALL TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE...

And as for my 'opinion reinforcements'...I set up the layout and showed three top speed bankers/One Pocket players, with 40 years of experience each, the bank on the 4ball, and asked them if they thought the bank was the right shot in that spot - all three said NO - they would not be shooting that bank...and who were these three players?....Ike Runnels, Red Shoes owner John Zaksas (who plays banks even with Jet and Piggybanks) and ex top pro Jeff Carter - these are top-speed bank pool players, and they don't even like the bank......



Now then...In response to my original challenge, Billy said >>>

Whoa, you have to give me enough credit to know that I wouldn't let you go to school on your kick attempts to beat me out of my $100. You do realize that everytime you kick at a shot you will improve on your accuracy on the hit? After the third kick you'll probably be the favorite to kick successfully, not true shooting the bank.

Billy I.

Ok then, I'll make it totally fair and see if anybody wants to shoot that bank for the money, against my kick...we'll still do best of 10 tries - but we'll separate our tries by an hour or hours between shots, so I can't develop an angle, or a feel or a rhythm for the kick - and, I'LL LET MY OPPONENT PICK A DIFFERENT TABLE OF HIS CHOICE FOR EACH ATTEMPT!...

Now let's see if I get any takers now to my completely fair challenge (I have my fingers crossed )...if I get no action - then we'll know, that they know, that really the bank shot choice is no good, and they're just saying it to be contrary with the Ghost (I wish I had a quarter for every time that that's happened)...

- Bruce-Luke-Ghost


PS, For those of you who haven't set this up on a real table, trust me (or set it up yourself), the bank angle is much more severe and difficult on a real table then it looks here on the wei-table.

PPS, I won't repeat here, the mocking, disdainful things that Freddy said at Red Shoes tonight, about those who would choose to shoot the bank on the 4ball...

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AbIL4BWpg4CbId3DAUJ3EATY4GTfh3HATr4PYWV@[/CUETABLE]

 

[stevelomako]

I think you always lose site of the fact that what everyone is always trying to do is figure out what is going to end up winning the GAME for them........not just making a certain shot.

You always fixate on turning it into whether your shot compared to someone else's is higher %, not if its the best choice to help win the game.


We can just have a HORSE contest at DCC if thats what you're looking to do. I'd absolutely be in on that.


So what did all the guys say they would do in that spot to have the best chance to win the game.....did they want to take a flyer and give up the game quick or try and grind out a win.

I really want to hear their choices and why also.

 

[stevelomako]

Actually here's a fair challenge.

We play to win the game. You need them all and its your shot and you have to kick at your combo.

The game gets finished and we set the balls up and then you need one and its your opponents shot.


Just see who wins more games. Thats fair because thats what we're trying to do....win games.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I think you always lose site of the fact that what everyone is always trying to do is figure out what is going to end up winning the GAME for them........not just making a certain shot.

You always fixate on turning it into whether your shot compared to someone else's is higher %, not if its the best choice to help win the game.

Nope, I don't lose sight of facts - and I fixate on different topics at different times - not just shot %'s...when I play One Pocket, every shot I shoot, is shot with the idea that it is the best shot that I can find to try to win the game - since winning the game, obviously, is the objective...comparing shot-making probability %'s is something different that we sometimes discuss/debate - they're two different things/points of discussion.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Actually here's a fair challenge.

We play to win the game. You need them all and its your shot and you have to kick at your combo.

The game gets finished and we set the balls up and then you need one and its your opponents shot.


Just see who wins more games. Thats fair because thats what we're trying to do....win games.

As long as the two players play the exact same speed, then I agree - that's definitely a good, fair, challenge.

 

[SJDinPHX]

As long as the two players play the exact same speed, then I agree - that's definitely a good, fair, challenge.

We could search the world over...and NEVER find anyone who plays EXACTLY your speed... (well, maybe in the darkest jungles of Africa...there just might be somebody)..

 

[wincardona]

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce

Bruce, Bruce, Bruce

Ok, now that I've found out how lacking in good/sound judgment the proponents of banking the 4ball are <--- note smiley...I'M BACK WITH REINFORCEMENTS/MORE CALVARY, AND A NEW CHALLENGE...

You see, I feel a responsibility to Larry and others on here looking to learn...so I have to warn them not to listen to certain 'learned' forum members who say the bank on the 4ball is the right shot, and others who call my kick a "nutball shot"...

It took me until today to realize how bad of a choice the bank on the 4ball is, because unlike many forum members, I don't have a home table - and today is the first time I've made it back to the poolroom (Red Shoes) since last Friday to set it up...I lined up the 3 balls behind the spot, with the cueball in the front jaws of my pocket, and found, that...THAT BANK IS EXTREMELY DIFFICULT, EXTREMELY LOW PERCENTAGE, ALMOST UNMAKEABLE, ESPECIALLY WHILE HITTING IT WITH INSIDE ENGLISH TO GET THE CUEBALL TO THE OPPOSITE SIDE...

And as for my 'opinion reinforcements'...With Freddy in attendance, and accordance, I set up the layout and showed three top speed bankers/One Pocket players, with 40 years of experience each, the bank on the 4ball, and asked them if they thought the bank was the right shot in that spot - all three said NO - they would not be shooting that bank...and who were these three players?....Ike Runnels, Red Shoes owner John Zaksas (who plays banks even with Jet and Piggybanks) and ex top pro Jeff Carter - these are top-speed bank pool players, and they don't even like the bank......



Now then...In response to my original challenge, Billy said >>>





Ok then, I'll make it totally fair and see if anybody wants to shoot that bank for the money, against my kick...we'll still do best of 10 tries - but we'll separate our tries by an hour or hours between shots, so I can't develop an angle, or a feel or a rhythm for the kick - and, I'LL LET MY OPPONENT PICK A DIFFERENT TABLE OF HIS CHOICE FOR EACH ATTEMPT!...

Now let's see if I get any takers now to my completely fair challenge (I have my fingers crossed )...if I get no action - then we'll know, that they know, that really the bank shot choice is no good, and they're just saying it to be contrary with the Ghost (I wish I had a quarter for every time that that's happened)...

- Bruce-Luke-Ghost


PS, For those of you who haven't set this up on a real table, trust me (or set it up yourself), the bank angle is much more severe and difficult on a real table then it looks here on the wei-table.

PPS, I won't repeat here, the mocking, disdainful things that Freddy said at Red Shoes tonight, about those who would choose to shoot the bank on the 4ball...

[CUETABLE]http://CueTable.com/P/?@4AbIL4BWpg4CbId3DAUJ3EATY4GTfh3HATr4PYWV@[/CUETABLE]

I happen to be up late and am bored, so i'll try to explain why I disagree with the Chicago boys. And by the way your new proposal isn't as absurd as your first one but still rediculous.

I'll start by explaining the difference between the two shots, in terms of negotiating the execution of the shots. The bank on the 4 ball is a shot that everyone understands, there really isn't any guessing with the shot. On the other hand the kick shot is a shot that very few people are familiar with, which means that there is much more guessing then method, which usually ends up in failing.

The bank carries more natural position than the kick which increases your chances of winning. Secondly the bank also carries a better result if you happen to miss it, in terms of selling out a shot. Finally, lets say that we both miss our shot, you miss the kick, and I miss the bank, my opponent will have a more difficult time getting his final ball than your opponent will because my ending position will be far superior to your ending position. Not to mention that with the kick you could possibly end up fouling.

Now I will explain why I don't like your new proposal. Basically it's the same reason I didn't like your original proposal. You will program in a sweet spot to kick at, even if you take an hour between shots.

The only way to decide what shot is the better shot is to have differen't people shoot the kick shot without going to school on it, that's the situation they will be confronted with if it came up in a game. Then we will be able to make a determination of how good both shots are to the norm. And yes I would be willing to gamble on that.

Billy I.

 

[wincardona]

I happen to be up late and am bored, so i'll try to explain why I disagree with the Chicago boys. And by the way your new proposal isn't as absurd as your first one but still rediculous.

I'll start by explaining the difference between the two shots, in terms of negotiating the execution of the shots. The bank on the 4 ball is a shot that everyone understands, there really isn't any guessing with the shot. On the other hand the kick shot is a shot that very few people are familiar with, which means that there is much more guessing then method, which usually ends up in failing.

The bank carries more natural position than the kick which increases your chances of winning. Secondly the bank also carries a better result if you happen to miss it, in terms of selling out a shot. Finally, lets say that we both miss our shot, you miss the kick, and I miss the bank, my opponent will have a more difficult time getting his final ball than your opponent will because my ending position will be far superior to your ending position. Not to mention that with the kick you could possibly end up fouling.

Now I will explain why I don't like your new proposal. Basically it's the same reason I didn't like your original proposal. You will program in a sweet spot to kick at, even if you take an hour between shots.

The only way to decide what shot is the better shot is to have differen't people shoot the kick shot without going to school on it, that's the situation they will be confronted with if it came up in a game. Then we will be able to make a determination of how good both shots are to the norm. And yes I would be willing to gamble on that.

Billy I.

If you would ask the people/players on this site which shot they would prefer if they were confronted with the situation that you (Bruce)were in, I think that their answer would tell us a lot about which shot is right. I'm only speaking of the kick, or the bank. We understand what shot you and I like, what about the rest of the people?

Personally I like to have controll of my destiny, to me the bank is a shot with much more controll then the kick.

Billy I.

 

[timdog24]

I happen to be up late and am bored, so i'll try to explain why I disagree with the Chicago boys. And by the way your new proposal isn't as absurd as your first one but still rediculous.

I'll start by explaining the difference between the two shots, in terms of negotiating the execution of the shots. The bank on the 4 ball is a shot that everyone understands, there really isn't any guessing with the shot. On the other hand the kick shot is a shot that very few people are familiar with, which means that there is much more guessing then method, which usually ends up in failing.

The bank carries more natural position than the kick which increases your chances of winning. Secondly the bank also carries a better result if you happen to miss it, in terms of selling out a shot. Finally, lets say that we both miss our shot, you miss the kick, and I miss the bank, my opponent will have a more difficult time getting his final ball than your opponent will because my ending position will be far superior to your ending position. Not to mention that with the kick you could possibly end up fouling.

Billy I.

I like the way you explained why the bank on the 4 is a better shot than the kick. They are all very solid reasons and I also think the bank is a better choice. That being said, I wouldn't shoot the bank in this spot, at that angle.

I like the shot that Steve L. posted on the old thread and that's taking an intentional in the line of balls, spotting one up, and see what he does next. I could easily have a better bank option or a more natural kick at the dead ball in my next innings. I just don't think it's - time to go - just yet.

Ghost, I was wondering what the top players said they would've done instead of the bank..

 

[NH Steve]

I haven't reviewed this whole thread, but I doubt Ghost ever suggested his kick was for just any random different player -- but rather only for people comfortable with advanced kicking.

I know Grady did a tape on "Only Kicks" that had a ton of heavy english kicks, but I don't remember if it included two-railers like this.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I'll start by explaining the difference between the two shots, in terms of negotiating the execution of the shots. The bank on the 4 ball is a shot that everyone understands, there really isn't any guessing with the shot. On the other hand the kick shot is a shot that very few people are familiar with, which means that there is much more guessing then method, which usually ends up in failing.

The bank carries more natural position than the kick which increases your chances of winning. Secondly the bank also carries a better result if you happen to miss it, in terms of selling out a shot. Finally, lets say that we both miss our shot, you miss the kick, and I miss the bank, my opponent will have a more difficult time getting his final ball than your opponent will because my ending position will be far superior to your ending position. Not to mention that with the kick you could possibly end up fouling.___All of this 'explaining' is negated by the bad angle of the bank___


The only way___No, this is not the only way___to decide what shot is the better shot is to have differen't people___"different people" - I already said, in post #39 of the first thread that I don't recommend my kick for the average player - did you forget that it's copied below___shoot the kick shot without going to school on it, that's the situation they will be confronted with if it came up in a game. Then we will be able to make a determination of how good both shots are to the norm. And yes I would be willing to gamble on that.


Billy I.

As far as you asking me if I think my 2-rail kick is the right shot for the masses/average player - absolutely not...

......Ghost

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I like the way you explained why the bank on the 4 is a better shot than the kick. They are all very solid reasons and I also think the bank is a better choice. That being said, I wouldn't shoot the bank in this spot, at that angle.
I like the shot that Steve L. posted on the old thread and that's taking an intentional in the line of balls, spotting one up, and see what he does next. I could easily have a better bank option or a more natural kick at the dead ball in my next innings. I just don't think it's - time to go - just yet.

Ghost, I was wondering what the top players said they would've done instead of the bank..

Tim....You and Steve L. both asked this...there wasn't time to go over the situation further with them all yesterday, because everybody was in action/unavailable...I will ask them at a later date...and I will ask other strong players at the DCC, because I think it's an interesting situation.

- Ghost

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I haven't reviewed this whole thread, but I doubt Ghost ever suggested his kick was for just any random different player -- but rather only for people comfortable with advanced kicking.
I know Grady did a tape on "Only Kicks" that had a ton of heavy english kicks, but I don't remember if it included two-railers like this.

Thank you Steve - I said exactly that yesterday >>>

As far as you asking me if I think my 2-rail kick is the right shot for the masses/average player - absolutely not...

- Ghost

PS, Pretty funny/interesting that you knew I would say that, and referenced it, and you never even saw my post...but other people saw my post, and then went on as if I never said it...

 

[wincardona]

......Ghost

Bruce, what exactly is your point in this post Are you, or are you not trying to promote the kick?

You say you want people to learn when you mentioned this.

You see, I feel a responsibility to Larry and others on here looking to learn...so I have to warn them not to listen to certain 'learned' forum members who say the bank on the 4ball is the right shot, and others who call my kick a "nutball shot"...

And then you say

As far as you asking me if I think my 2-rail kick is the right shot for the masses/average player - absolutely not...
- Ghost Ok,

THIS IS A POST FROM FRANK ALMANZA

Dr. Bill, I'm now a firm believer of your prescription. I tried the shot about a dozen times and now see the value in it. At no time did a ball sell out when I didn't make the bank. I made the bank 5 times and each time there was a good reward behind it. I found that a slight taste of inside english kept the q on the correct side of the table.

Thanks Rod for the diagram of the shot. It was amazing how consistant the flight of the balls were even when I didn't hit the shot so well.


I also believe that Stevelomako"s shot is a better shot for this situation than the kick.

Thanks Frank, for trying the shot and being objective with your opinion. Now if you would try the kick (one time only) and report the results and then tell us which shot you would shoot in a real live situation, it would be appreciated.

Billy I.

 

[stevelomako]

The Ghost does come up with some interesting scenarios that make us go hmmmmm.

He has had some choices that were excellent that most of us wouldn't have shot at before or even considered like that kick on the bottom rail.


I guess he does OK that we get involved about what is/would be the right thing in those spots.



Although if I was staking him, betting on him or playing partners with him and he came with some of that stuff..................????????

 

[jrhendy]

The Ghost does come up with some interesting scenarios that make us go hmmmmm.

He has had some choices that were excellent that most of us wouldn't have shot at before or even considered like that kick on the bottom rail.


I guess he does OK that we get involved about what is/would be the right thing in those spots.



Although if I was staking him, betting on him or playing partners with him and he came with some of that stuff..................????????

I will be my own partner against the Ghost and Bernie from Phoenix, who plays a little better than either of us, and my best chance of winning will be if the Ghost goes for some of these shots he defends so much on this forum.

They will probably drive his partner nuts and get me in dead stroke.

Coaching is allowed and Bernie will probably be able to talk some sense to him and he will shoot the shots that 99% of one pocket players shoot instead of the skyrockets he often puts on here.

 

[stevelomako]

I will be my own partner against the Ghost and Bernie from Phoenix, who plays a little better than either of us, and my best chance of winning will be if the Ghost goes for some of these shots he defends so much on this forum.

They will probably drive his partner nuts and get me in dead stroke.

Coaching is allowed and Bernie will probably be able to talk some sense to him and he will shoot the shots that 99% of one pocket players shoot instead of the skyrockets he often puts on here.

Or hopefully, the Ghost coaches BP and he starts to go off the air listening to what he tells him.

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

I will be my own partner against the Ghost and Bernie from Phoenix, who plays a little better than either of us, and my best chance of winning will be if the Ghost goes for some of these shots he defends so much on this forum.

They will probably drive his partner nuts and get me in dead stroke.

Coaching is allowed and Bernie will probably be able to talk some sense to him and he will shoot the shots that 99% of one pocket players shoot instead of the skyrockets he often puts on here.

Ho hum....nice try once again with the psychological warfare....but your many futile posts trying to drive a wedge between Bernie and I will 'bear no fruit'...Bernie and I will be a rock solid team - in the foxhole together - on a mission to destroy our sworn mutual enemy...John Henderson......

- M.O.M.N.

PS, Bernie and I have already started having our war council/strategy meetings...

PPS, We'll get you softened up for your bank pool match against Freddy...

 

[One Pocket Ghost]

Or hopefully, the Ghost coaches BP and he starts to go off the air listening to what he tells him.

Whaddayamean "hopefully"...are you staking John? - or is he your cousin maybe?......

I feel very betrayed to think that you're rooting for a left coast/land of milk and honey guy instead of a fellow snow-shoveling, freezing-his-ass-off-for-six-months-a-year, working stiff, rust-belter...

- Ghost

 

[stevelomako]

Whaddayamean "hopefully"...are you staking John? - or is he your cousin maybe?......

I feel very betrayed to think that you're rooting for a left coast/land of milk and honey guy instead of a fellow snow-shoveling, freezing-his-ass-off-for-six-months-a-year, working stiff, rust-belter...

- Ghost

Damn, you got me feelin a little guilty again with a little bit of logic..........except.......you got one of those as your partner.

But I guess us sick snow dwellers should try to stick together.


What to do? What to do?