Killer Instinct in one pocket

Scrzbill · Aug 30, 2014

Mkbtank said:
That really is a mentality that I need to develop. When I "know" that the shot I like is the wrong shot...... But cannot stop myself.

Double the bet.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 30, 2014

gulfportdoc said:
...Playing for recreation and playing for the rent are two different propositions. But there's nothing inherently wrong with either of them.

~Doc

That.

And I see a third possibility: playing to simply continue improving. That's me. When I compete I (usually) don't really care who wins - but I care A LOT whether I play well.

This reflects the mindset I practice: instead of trying to win, I try to hit each shot perfectly.

pj
chgo

mr3cushion · Aug 30, 2014

gulfportdoc said:
Mitch, I think it's a matter of a guy's purpose in playing 1P, or pool in general. There's nothing wrong with being a recreational player. If there weren't recreational players, there wouldn't be any pool at all. If it there weren't, it would be a sport limited to only a select few-- like African big game safari hunters.

It's a lot of fun to play around. That's undoubtedly what attracted the vast majority of us to pick up pool in the first place: the fascination of balls rolling around the green baize and dropping into pockets. I've played for almost 60 years, and I still like to just throw some balls out and bang them around, or maybe just try shots just to see what happens.

And lots of people can play games of pool with opponents, and not really care who wins or loses. They're playing for fun. And they enjoy that.

I spent a lot of time in my youth bashing balls around with an opponent, not really caring who won. Even into my 20's, I'd play "shoot at every ball" 9-ball, no safeties, just for the fun of slapping balls in the hole.

I recall the great Hollywood Jack, when he was running Chopsticks Billiards in the L.A. San Fernando Valley, telling some sneering gamblers who were trying to hustle some of his customers, "Hey, leave those guys alone. They're not like you, they're just trying to have a good time."

But the difference comes in when a guy wants to win, to the point that it eats him up to lose. Now he has to take steps to become a better and better player. And when he plays an opponent, he's going to want to have the skill level and the knowledge to be able to beat him. When he beats him, he wants to be able to beat an even better player, and so on-- to the maximum.

So if a guy really has the desire to win, then he must play real serious, with intense concentration, and do everything he can to prevail. He can never let up.

And gambling is not necessary to become a better player. It depends upon a guy's mind set. If a guy can't play his best without money on the line, then that's what he must do to become better. I've also seen lots of guys where gambling has a diminishing returns effect. They play for stakes that they really can't afford, and their games go down hill. Then there are others who are worse than that...

I hate losing. So when I play, I'm as serious as a heart attack. If I lose (and sometimes even when I win), I analyze what I did wrong. Sure, once in awhile it's because the opponent got a lucky roll or something like that, or perhaps I've just tangled with a better player in a game I really couldn't win. But invariably if I lose to a player who's roughly the same speed as I, it's because I've let up in concentration, or have taken the wrong shot (often when I knew better).

So playing well is a matter of degree, but it's mostly based upon the reason a guy is playing pool in the first place. Playing for recreation and playing for the rent are two different propositions. But there's nothing inherently wrong with either of them.

~Doc

Excellent post, and "spot on" on all the points! IMHO!

Doc; Here's page from my book/DVD, "The Concise Book of Position Play."

The Chapter entitled, "Strategy and Winning Moves"

It's a little OT, but, describes my views on the difference between, "tournament play and gambling."

Secrets of a 3 Cushion Billiard Hustler

I have to confess I’ve probably won more money from 1968-2000 than anyone in the US playing 3 cushion billiards. One of my first victims was a celebrity, Milton Berle, $30.00 which he promptly stiffed me, his excuse, “hey kid, you think I would have taken your money”, I was 19.

Though out my career I’ve played for $2.00 a game up to $90,000.00 a game and I’m here to tell you there’s no difference. It all depends on your life style and circumstances. If you’re broke, the $2.00 game looks like a million. If you’re flush, the $90,000.00 feels like a deuce. It’s all relative.

Playing in tournaments and playing billiards for money (gambling) are two different unique experiences. In a tournament you usually get to play the same opponent once maybe twice and there is usually a time span between those games, so you don’t get a real feel for your opponent’s strengths and weaknesses. Playing for money you’re playing the same opponent game after game so the player can calculate what kind of game their involved in. You don’t have to worry about average, how safe you play, or how long you take on every shot. The main objective is to WIN THE GAME, especially when you’re playing for money out of your pocket.

When a better player gives a handicap to a weaker player in terms of points on the wire, the first objective for the giving player is to, make up those points and get control of the game. I’ve seen many players’ do just the opposite, they start out by playing safe to catch up, and you need points to catch up. Once the better player has caught up they can try to control the rest of the game by playing position and by using shot-safeties.

When playing a player of equal strength, try to be somewhat intimidating in the early stages. I’ve beaten many better players on paper because they couldn’t repel my constant aggressive play and timely safety play. You must have a persona of total confidence in your game. If your opponent senses any weakness and if their smart, they will use it to their advantage. This is very important, “You don’t always have to play your best to win, but, you do have to play your smartest”!

Mkbtank · Aug 30, 2014

Killer Instinct in one pocket

gulfportdoc said:
Mitch, I think it's a matter of a guy's purpose in playing 1P, or pool in general. There's nothing wrong with being a recreational player. If there weren't recreational players, there wouldn't be any pool at all. If it there weren't, it would be a sport limited to only a select few-- like African big game safari hunters.

It's a lot of fun to play around. That's undoubtedly what attracted the vast majority of us to pick up pool in the first place: the fascination of balls rolling around the green baize and dropping into pockets. I've played for almost 60 years, and I still like to just throw some balls out and bang them around, or maybe just try shots just to see what happens.

And lots of people can play games of pool with opponents, and not really care who wins or loses. They're playing for fun. And they enjoy that.

I spent a lot of time in my youth bashing balls around with an opponent, not really caring who won. Even into my 20's, I'd play "shoot at every ball" 9-ball, no safeties, just for the fun of slapping balls in the hole.

I recall the great Hollywood Jack, when he was running Chopsticks Billiards in the L.A. San Fernando Valley, telling some sneering gamblers who were trying to hustle some of his customers, "Hey, leave those guys alone. They're not like you, they're just trying to have a good time."

But the difference comes in when a guy wants to win, to the point that it eats him up to lose. Now he has to take steps to become a better and better player. And when he plays an opponent, he's going to want to have the skill level and the knowledge to be able to beat him. When he beats him, he wants to be able to beat an even better player, and so on-- to the maximum.

So if a guy really has the desire to win, then he must play real serious, with intense concentration, and do everything he can to prevail. He can never let up.

And gambling is not necessary to become a better player. It depends upon a guy's mind set. If a guy can't play his best without money on the line, then that's what he must do to become better. I've also seen lots of guys where gambling has a diminishing returns effect. They play for stakes that they really can't afford, and their games go down hill. Then there are others who are worse than that...

I hate losing. So when I play, I'm as serious as a heart attack. If I lose (and sometimes even when I win), I analyze what I did wrong. Sure, once in awhile it's because the opponent got a lucky roll or something like that, or perhaps I've just tangled with a better player in a game I really couldn't win. But invariably if I lose to a player who's roughly the same speed as I, it's because I've let up in concentration, or have taken the wrong shot (often when I knew better).

So playing well is a matter of degree, but it's mostly based upon the reason a guy is playing pool in the first place. Playing for recreation and playing for the rent are two different propositions. But there's nothing inherently wrong with either of them.

~Doc

I think you're right Doc. I remember that one of the best points that I took from my favorite pool philosophy book "pleasures of small motions" is to know what your Motivation is. For me, it's becoming a better one pocket player. I am not a practice player. I only get a few hours a week to play and I'm lucky that there's a lot of small-medium-large action where I play. I typically get a game 5 minutes after walking into the pool hall (and no, it's not because
I'm a sucker lol. My winning % has always been pretty high). So I "try" things that I shouldn't if I was more focused on winning than learning or "seeing what happens with this shot".

So I guess I do want to evolve and play smarter. That's what I'm stating, and going to make a conscious effort to control.

Thanks everyone for the ideas. They are all great.

androd said:
Git Er Done.
Rod.

Yessir

sappo said:
okay mitch, if you really want to stop playing shots YOU KNOW are not the best/correct shot that will lead you to win the game, then you have to motivate yourself to change. heres my suggestion and I'm serious. every time you are in that situation and you still shoot the poorer selection send me $10.00. I'm willing to bet that after a while you will stop shooting the wrong shot.

the solution is simple, you just need to really want to solve it. also every time you send me the money you must post about it here for everyone to see. keith

That's not s bad idea Keith. Just the thought of that will help me do the right thing. That, and pay for your country club membership this year lol

Island Drive said:
Depends on the bet and the situation....Losing is not in my DNA. From sailing to ice skating to ping pong to badminton to tennis, losing does NOT enhance my day, only makes me become More aware of the situation.

Thanks. This thread has helped with my awareness.

Scrzbill said:
Double the bet.

That would fix it. I have been playing for less $ this year than last. Usually 20 a game. Fun games. Last year when I was often matching up at 100 a game, I did play smarter. This is a different year though and I don't have the same cash to gamble. But 20 doesn't make me care enough. I need to have more respect for my money.

Patrick Johnson said:
That.

And I see a third possibility: playing to simply continue improving. That's me. When I compete I (usually) don't really care who wins - but I care A LOT whether I play well.

This reflects the mindset I practice: instead of trying to win, I try to hit each shot perfectly.

pj

chgo

I am like this also Patrick. But I want to change that a bit. I think I am a pretty good player. I want to become a tougher player. There are some guys who I play who act like they are playing for their last dollar. I want more of that mentality in my game.

Patrick Johnson · Aug 30, 2014

I see a third possibility: playing to simply continue improving. That's me. When I compete I (usually) don't really care who wins - but I care A LOT whether I play well.

This reflects the mindset I practice: instead of trying to win, I try to hit each shot perfectly.

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

mkbtank:
I am like this also Patrick. But I want to change that a bit. I think I am a pretty good player. I want to become a tougher player. There are some guys who I play who act like they are playing for their last dollar. I want more of that mentality in my game.

I want that much focus too, but not on winning - I want it to be about excellence. Problem for me is I'm not as interested in excellent defense as I am in excellent offense. I see a circus shot opportunity, the calliope music starts playing in my head, and it's cue the pool clowns...

pj
chgo

OPBEAST · Aug 30, 2014

Shoot to kill!

Shoot to kill!

Don't give up A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G! You'll sleep better at night! (wink)

Mkbtank · Aug 30, 2014

Killer Instinct in one pocket

Patrick Johnson said:
I want that much focus too, but not on winning - I want it to be about excellence. Problem for me is I'm not as interested in excellent defense as I am in excellent offense. I see a circus shot opportunity, the calliope music starts playing in my head, and it's cue the pool clowns...

pj

chgo

Trying to make them one and the same. We'll see how it goes....

OPBEAST said:
Don't give up A-N-Y-T-H-I-N-G! You'll sleep better at night! (wink)

Ok. Will try hard. Dammit!!

Tom Wirth · Aug 30, 2014

Players who are afraid of making mistakes are destined to do just that. The trick is in knowing which mistakes are acceptable and which are not.

Tom

Jimmy B · Aug 30, 2014

tylerdurden said:
All I can say is get bit in the ass enough by letting up just a little, and after a long while you don't ever want to give up even a single game no matter the score.

You said it kiddo. By the way, why didn't you tell me Lou F and Barton were trying to match up again. Damn.

courtesy of Tyler Durden.

Mkbtank · Aug 30, 2014

Killer Instinct in one pocket

Tom Wirth said:
Players who are afraid of making mistakes are destined to do just that. The trick is in knowing which mistakes are acceptable and which are not.

Tom

IE: Controlled aggression.

I'm listening.

gulfportdoc · Aug 31, 2014

Jimmy B said:
You said it kiddo. By the way, why didn't you tell me Lou F and Barton were trying to match up again. Damn.

courtesy of Tyler Durden.

Heh, heh. Your picture reminds me of one of my favorite Mark Twain quotes:
"A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." ...

~Doc

boingo · Aug 31, 2014

I hate losing. The only thing worse than losing is losing when I haven't given 110% in preparation and execution. If you're going to compete sometimes you're going to lose and when that happens the best I can manage is to not behave poorly

. Maybe I should be ashamed of that but that's the way it is.

These days I try to confine my killer instinct to my business dealings, I can't avoid that arena. It's not pretty.

LSJohn · Aug 31, 2014

Mkbtank said:
That really is a mentality that I need to develop. When I "know" that the shot I like is the wrong shot...... But cannot stop myself.

You mentioned that your winning percentage has always been pretty good. Mabe it's too good for your current objective of more disciplined shot selection. I'll bet you're more likely (like Hendy confessed) to let up a little and choose more "crowd-pleasers" (really self-pleasers) when you're ahead in a cheap money match.

Maybe matching yourself up tougher will encourage you to fight your ass off to overcome it. Do that often enough and better discipline might come naturally. Maybe a more disciplined mind-set can be conditioned the same way a muscle is... by stress.

I know I play a much more disciplined game when I'm matched up tough than when I think I have the nuts.

When I play, the money matters, but a cash score isn't as big a kick for me as playing someone a notch above me and breaking even. That's undoubtedly why I enjoy tournaments so much... at least half the time ("half" is a boast

) I'm playing someone better, and something akin to a killer instinct comes out that never surfaces when I'm playing for $20-50/game. (But $50 works better than $20!

)

Thanks for your post. By thinking through what I might suggest to you it has made me more aware of what I should be saying to myself.

Mkbtank · Aug 31, 2014

Killer Instinct in one pocket

LSJohn said:
You mentioned that your winning percentage has always been pretty good. Mabe it's too good for your current objective of more disciplined shot selection. I'll bet you're more likely (like Hendy confessed) to let up a little and choose more "crowd-pleasers" (really self-pleasers) when you're ahead in a cheap money match.

Maybe matching yourself up tougher will encourage you to fight your ass off to overcome it. Do that often enough and better discipline might come naturally. Maybe a more disciplined mind-set can be conditioned the same way a muscle is... by stress.

I know I play a much more disciplined game when I'm matched up tough than when I think I have the nuts.

When I play, the money matters, but a cash score isn't as big a kick for me as playing someone a notch above me and breaking even. That's undoubtedly why I enjoy tournaments so much... at least half the time ("half" is a boast ) I'm playing someone better, and something akin to a killer instinct comes out that never surfaces when I'm playing for $20-50/game. (But $50 works better than $20! )

Thanks for your post. By thinking through what I might suggest to you it has made me more aware of what I should be saying to myself.

My pleasure John. Thank You for the ideas. I'm very happy that I started this thread. The answers have been great and I truly believe that they, and the thoughts that have come from them will help my game.

androd · Sep 1, 2014

One more thing, the little guy in your head that's telling you it's the wrong shot is an aggravating pain in the a$$. After a long time I began to realize how often the little nag was right, and began to listen.

I also have a lot of what Henderson mentioned. but can shut it down when serious.
Rod.

wincardona · Sep 1, 2014

Mkbtank said:
Can it be developed? Worked on?

At times, I would still rather "have fun" than win. I have the ability, yet not the mental discipline to consistently win as often as I should.

Example- I played a guy last night (getting weight) and decided on my way there to play tight and not to give up shots. I move just as well as my opponent but he shoots straighter. Match starts and I am moving, playing great. I win 3 out of the first 4 games while moving really well and am hearing the rail birds commenting that I am going to kill my opponent. That's when I start loosening up.

When I make a few balls and want to take a lower % shot to "keep the run going" rather than look for a good safety while maintaining control of the table. Or, since I am such a lover of 1p, if I see a shot that is new, or I think just looks like a great one pocket shot, I just want to see the shot executed, like I can't resist. My joy for the game causes me to do dumb things lol.

This is an enormous mistake of mine obviously which needs to be corrected. Maintaining control of the table must be of paramount importance, over the, "fun shot", hero or pride feeding thoughts that jump in my head and will take me off course if/when I let them. If I'm up, I tell myself it doesn't matter, and take dem flyers, which I did last night, giving my straight shooting opponent the chance to shoot at his hole, and break even, which he did last night.

So it annoys me that while I know I have the skill to notch more "W's", I need to work on the desire, or the discipline, to stay smart, stay patient, and take them.

Anyone else struggle with these issues and overcome them??

I think it would be safe to say that many many more people have experienced what you have compared to the players that that have the "killer attitude" I have a suggestion for you that may just change your demeanor when at the table.

I believe we need to focus on something that is more important than just winning or playing to entertain. Pick out something that's very important to you that would alleviate the "game pressure" while you're playing. For instance play for a cause, maybe it's someone who is very ill and you say to yourself that by winning you will help your friend to never give up and keep trying to fight to get better. Or, play for someone close to you that just passed and dedicate the match to that person. Play for your children, or some one that you want to help in some way. Dedicating your mission to a cause will take away game pressure, and will enable you to play with a killer attitude.

After you have done this successfully for enough times you will grow into a more confident player, and you will win more consistently because of it.

Dr. Bill

Tom Wirth · Sep 1, 2014

wincardona said:
I think it would be safe to say that many many more people have experienced what you have compared to the players that that have the "killer attitude" I have a suggestion for you that may just change your demeanor when at the table.

I believe we need to focus on something that is more important than just winning or playing to entertain. Pick out something that's very important to you that would alleviate the "game pressure" while you're playing. For instance play for a cause, maybe it's someone who is very ill and you say to yourself that by winning you will help your friend to never give up and keep trying to fight to get better. Or, play for someone close to you that just passed and dedicate the match to that person. Play for your children, or some one that you want to help in some way. Dedicating your mission to a cause will take away game pressure, and will enable you to play with a killer attitude.

After you have done this successfully for enough times you will grow into a more confident player, and you will win more consistently because of it.

Dr. Bill

That is an interesting approach to maintaining a strong mental attitude to winning, Bill. It reminded me of a statement I heard about Don Willis when he was asked how he managed to raise his family during the depression by playing pool. Whether the statement is based in fact or not is not the point but he apparently said that when playing Nine ball and he shot the one ball in he was reminded that that ball was equal to a bottle of milk for his babies. He shot the two ball in and there was a loaf of bread......That put the importance of winning into perspective for me.

Patrick Johnson · Sep 1, 2014

I want that much focus too, but not on winning - I want it to be about excellence. Problem for me is I'm not as interested in excellent defense as I am in excellent offense. I see a circus shot opportunity, the calliope music starts playing in my head, and it's cue the pool clowns...

pj
chgo

Click to expand...

Mkbtank:

Trying to make them one and the same. We'll see how it goes....

That's my new game plan too. This discussion has made me see that I've had a limited (and limiting) view of "excellence" in 1 pocket - and maybe in pool in general. Even if I don't care much about winning I should practice what I preach and "enjoy the process" of defensive play as much as offense - after all, it's at least as big a challenge and requires at least as much excellence. Then on those rare days when I do want to win I might actually have a shot at it.

pj
chgo

baby huey · Sep 2, 2014

Humans generally rise to the level of their specific incompetence. By that I mean, it's hard to gear up all the time for a specific shot(s) or match regardless of the bet or lack thereof. That's where the training and self discipline comes into effect. Billy Incardona alluded to it somewhat in his post about playing for someone else. Thinking about a loved one or good friend helps him overcome his specific incompetence. Staying focused and in the moment is what we all try to achieve and rarely master.

Mkbtank · Sep 2, 2014

Killer Instinct in one pocket

wincardona said:
I think it would be safe to say that many many more people have experienced what you have compared to the players that that have the "killer attitude" I have a suggestion for you that may just change your demeanor when at the table.

I believe we need to focus on something that is more important than just winning or playing to entertain. Pick out something that's very important to you that would alleviate the "game pressure" while you're playing. For instance play for a cause, maybe it's someone who is very ill and you say to yourself that by winning you will help your friend to never give up and keep trying to fight to get better. Or, play for someone close to you that just passed and dedicate the match to that person. Play for your children, or some one that you want to help in some way. Dedicating your mission to a cause will take away game pressure, and will enable you to play with a killer attitude.

After you have done this successfully for enough times you will grow into a more confident player, and you will win more consistently because of it.

Dr. Bill

Ok Dr Bill. I will try this. Thanks. It's not so much not having confidence though, as not taking the game seriously enough. Or the opposite... Thinking that I can take a flyer and always come back and still win. But your prescription is still the correct one, and I will take my medicine

.

Tom Wirth said:
That is an interesting approach to maintaining a strong mental attitude to winning, Bill. It reminded me of a statement I heard about Don Willis when he was asked how he managed to raise his family during the depression by playing pool. Whether the statement is based in fact or not is not the point but he apparently said that when playing Nine ball and he shot the one ball in he was reminded that that ball was equal to a bottle of milk for his babies. He shot the two ball in and there was a loaf of bread......That put the importance of winning into perspective for me.

Reminds me of a great movie "Cinderella man"

Patrick Johnson said:
That's my new game plan too. This discussion has made me see that I've had a limited (and limiting) view of "excellence" in 1 pocket - and maybe in pool in general. Even if I don't care much about winning I should practice what I preach and "enjoy the process" of defensive play as much as offense - after all, it's at least as big a challenge and requires at least as much excellence. Then on those rare days when I do want to win I might actually have a shot at it.

pj

chgo

Patrick - I really enjoy your posts, and this one made me think of a whole other topic that I wanted to mention. I will go do in a new thread though because I think it's worthy of separate discussion.

jerry matchin said:
Humans generally rise to the level of their specific incompetence. By that I mean, it's hard to gear up all the time for a specific shot(s) or match regardless of the bet or lack thereof. That's where the training and self discipline comes into effect. Billy Incardona alluded to it somewhat in his post about playing for someone else. Thinking about a loved one or good friend helps him overcome his specific incompetence. Staying focused and in the moment is what we all try to achieve and rarely master.

Very. Very wise words sir. Thanks.

Killer Instinct in one pocket

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