Owen vs. Nevel 2008 DCC

wincardona · Sep 16, 2014

mr3cushion said:
Skin; this type of hit in 3C comes up constantly, "thin with medium to extreme English." This shot can be hit 2 or 3 different ways, depending on where I want the OB to finish up and how "long" I want the CB to travel, 3 cushions to the short rail or 3 to the long cushion.

The position of the CB and OB in Doc's image requires the OB to be hit, "extremely" thin because of the side pocket. Because your contacting the OB so thin now you have to figure out how much, "extreme" English and whether to apply slight, "follow or draw" and also what tempo and timing to use. Just imagine, these are the multitudes of calculations a TOP 3C player makes on almost every time at the table.

To play the shot as I diagramed it, hit the OB 1/16 full with extreme 9 O'clock English and a short stroke, (follow-thru) less than the length of your bridge. The speed is pretty simple, because your hitting the OB so thin and with the extreme English the CB will travel around 3 or 4 cushion will little effort. And that's how I would play this shot!

This type of hit, English, speed, shot is a common occurrence in 3 cushion, that's why I say the shot is NO bug deal for me! I have ALL the confidence in the world to shoot this shot!

Bill, I understand how accomplished you are playing 3 cushion, however, this shot is a little too much to ask for a one pocket player with little to none three cushion experience. I noticed that you shared your "technique"on how you execute shots of this kind and I find it very informative. Like you say, and I concur, every shot that is shot is perceived differently, and i'm good with that. Taylor looks at banks the same way "Bugs" did, they believed they owned all bank shots and i'm not quite sure they didn't:lol You on the other hand feel the same about 3 and 4 cushion shots and I also believe you own them as well, which has been evidenced in your 3 cushion history. Tom wasn't challenging your decision on your ability to pull this shot off, however, what he was doing was to reason out the cost of the natural 3 cushion kick compared to the shot you chose and concluded that the loss of accuracy with the shot you chose for a one pocket player was not worth the ball you may have lost by opting to kick. In situations like this one where cue ball control is at it's premium, emphasis should be put on the best way to arrive to a safe position. (at any cost) Even the slightest loss of accuracy in game deciding shots (like this one) is worth the ball you sacrifice to end up in a safe position. Many times I have decided to take an intentional as opposed to trying to arrive in a specific area of the table because I believed I just might not get there with a legal shot. It hurts for an instance, but blundering in situations like these when trying to do something extra (just to save the ball) hurts for a long time

However, beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder.

Dr. Bill

mr3cushion · Sep 16, 2014

wincardona said:
Bill, I understand how accomplished you are playing 3 cushion, however, this shot is a little too much to ask for a one pocket player with little to none three cushion experience. I noticed that you shared your "technique"on how you execute shots of this kind and I find it very informative. Like you say, and I concur, every shot that is shot is perceived differently, and i'm good with that. Taylor looks at banks the same way "Bugs" did, they believed they owned all bank shots and i'm not quite sure they didn't:lol You on the other hand feel the same about 3 and 4 cushion shots and I also believe you own them as well, which has been evidenced in your 3 cushion history. Tom wasn't challenging your decision on your ability to pull this shot off, however, what he was doing was to reason out the cost of the natural 3 cushion kick compared to the shot you chose and concluded that the loss of accuracy with the shot you chose for a one pocket player was not worth the ball you may have lost by opting to kick. In situations like this one where cue ball control is at it's premium, emphasis should be put on the best way to arrive to a safe position. (at any cost) Even the slightest loss of accuracy in game deciding shots (like this one) is worth the ball you sacrifice to end up in a safe position. Many times I have decided to take an intentional as opposed to trying to arrive in a specific area of the table because I believed I just might not get there with a legal shot. It hurts for an instance, but blundering in situations like these when trying to do something extra (just to save the ball) hurts for a long time However, beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder.

Dr. Bill

Billy; this was part of my reply to Jerry Matchen. I did emphasize the bank rather than my shot for MOST one pocket players. If you know a shot, you know a shot!

Don't get me wrong, the 3 or 4 cushion bank, (and maybe scratch) is for most players the easiest escape, without too much going wrong! Part of the reason for the shot I chose, was exactly as Jerry described, leaving the 11 on my side, and take away a bank to come!

jtompilot · Sep 16, 2014

To SJD, we have met at Bullshooters. I will look you up next time I'm in Phoenix and we can a beer and a good time. Looking forward to seeing you and the other guys in PHX.

Do you know if JR(Leil Gay) is still in Mesa?

straightback · Sep 16, 2014

I am a bit confused here. It does not take a Mike Massey draw stroke to get down on the end rail. In fact, it can barely even be categorized as a draw shot. Yeah, you're hitting it low, but you need stun. You can do it one of two ways. First, you can stun it proper and either head parallel to the rail or go one rail to your destination. Second, and this is trickier but requires less of a stroke, you can stun it with right English and let the spin take you there. Alex and Efren are masters at this latter method.

At any rate, the stroke is indeed touchy, but it does not require a herculean stroke.

mr3cushion · Sep 16, 2014

straightback said:
I am a bit confused here. It does not take a Mike Massey draw stroke to get down on the end rail. In fact, it can barely even be categorized as a draw shot. Yeah, you're hitting it low, but you need stun. You can do it one of two ways. First, you can stun it proper and either head parallel to the rail or go one rail to your destination. Second, and this is trickier but requires less of a stroke, you can stun it with right English and let the spin take you there. Alex and Efren are masters at this latter method.

At any rate, the stroke is indeed touchy, but it does not require a herculean stroke.

This was my reply to Doc, along the same lines about, How to...

gulfportdoc said:
Nevel did draw off the ball by the side pocket, which my eye sees as the 13. The reason I posted the layout is that few guys that don't have Nevel's phenomenal stroke would be able to pull that off with confidence, especially so close to the rail. I imagine that Bill S. has that kind of stroke, but I didn't imagine that there were so many others. So Mitch gets the cookie, and he can share it with any others who agreed with him. Although any guy with the stroke to draw that ball probably needs more calories than that.

For us humans there are other preferable shots, of which there were good suggestions. The 3 and 4 railers are good. I'd probably have come off the 11 or the 8 for a safety similar or nearly similar to some that were mentioned. As you can see, Nevel left the CB in a fairly easy place for a return safety, but he gave it the college try. ~Doc

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The shot Larry shot is NOT that easy, for one simple reason, "The 11 ball is SO close the cushion." If you use NO English , you must hit the ball 95% full and pretty firm, could be a scratch. If you use, 5 O'clock English, and a little less ball, now the carom could run into the 4 ball first or spin off the bottom cushion and the worst result.

Don't get me wrong, the 3 or 4 cushion bank, (and maybe scratch) is for most players the easiest escape, without too much going wrong! Part of the reason for the shot I chose, was exactly as Jerry described, leaving the 11 on my side, and take away a bank to come!

baby huey · Sep 16, 2014

Sometimes we just need to get to the next inning playing one pocket. By that I mean play a good safety and let your opponent shoot out of it. I am not an advocate of hitting home runs when singles are all that is needed to win the game. There are times when all you have left is hitting the home run and those situations are clear to see. I always use the baseball analogies because they most parallel the game we love. I will always feel that good pitching stops good hitting.

One Pocket Ghost · Sep 16, 2014

Similar to the "singles" that Jerry spoke of in the previous post....There's one shot available here that hasn't been seen/mentioned, and it may very well be the shot that I would choose to shoot...as opposed to the other choices here, where imperfect execution will most likely instantly lose the game, one big plus to the following shot is that the success rate of execution is 100%...

I will just softly shoot the 10ball to the bottom rail and have the cueball end up frozen against the stack - and if the angle allows, at the same time I will try and have 10 tie up the 3 and 4 balls so that they are no longer makeable for Gabe...

Next...Gabe can't just touch the cueball and leave me there because he will be on the first foul...and since he won't be able to see the 8ball, he will have no legal shot to get me back behind the stack...

So what can he do?...about the only two shots he will have, is to kick at the 8, or thin a ball at the top of the stack and send the cueball down to the head rail...

Neither of those two shots will trap me, and from either position I will have much better safety opportunities available to me than I had in the previous inning.

- Ghost

PS, Although the shot I just posited isn't as significant the shots of mine that Freddy refers to in the following post..I'm going to take this opportunity to post up this past quote from Freddy - this is an excerpt from the post he made re. his analysis of a 5-6 hour friendly gambling match ($30 a game, our usual bet) that Dr. Bill and I had against each other 2 yrs. ago ------>

fred bentivegna said:
I sweated most of it. Even when I got a short game myself, I played on the next table. The Ghost played very well. His moving was excellent. Even to a hard core cynic like myself. His mastery of kicking is one of the biggest reasons for his strong moving. He made a few tiny little shots that one would seldom think to do, and their effect was enormous.
Dr Bill showed excellent speed control on long banks to the hole, and leaving the cue ball 9 feet away. I credit that to his long, 1ball 1pkt session with Shane. Watching Shane do it for hour after hour, motivated Billy to do likewise out of sheer necessity. Billy's position play was very good, he missed a few key balls when his focus lapsed, but overall he played a decent speed.

Beard

tylerdurden · Sep 16, 2014

One Pocket Ghost said:
Similar to the "singles" that Jerry spoke of in the previous post....There's one shot available here that hasn't been seen/mentioned, and it may very well be the shot that I would choose to shoot...as opposed to the other choices here, where imperfect execution will most likely instantly lose the game, one big plus to the following shot is that the success rate of execution is 100%...

I will just softly shoot the 10ball to the bottom rail and have the cueball end up frozen against the stack - and if the angle allows, at the same time I will try and have 10 tie up the 3 and 4 balls so that they are no longer makeable for Gabe...

Next...Gabe can't just touch the cueball and leave me there because he will be on the first foul...and since he won't be able to see the 8ball, he will have no legal shot to get me back behind the stack...

So what can he do?...about the only two shots he will have, is to kick at the 8, or thin a ball at the top of the stack and send the cueball down to the head rail...

Neither of those two shots will trap me, and from either position I will have much better safety opportunities available to me than I had in the previous inning.

- Ghost

PS, Although the shot I just posited isn't as significant the shots of mine that Freddy refers to in the following post..I'm going to take this opportunity to post up this past quote from Freddy - this is an excerpt from the post he made re. his analysis of a 5-6 hour friendly gambling match ($30 a game, our usual bet) that Dr. Bill and I had against each other 2 yrs. ago ------>

Well, he can sure nudge a couple balls forward on that first foul and he's gonna get the best of it being on that side of the stack..... 9 times out of 10 I would say anyway. I am with you though, I like taking a chance at leaving him In That stack, but I like moving balls while doing it.

SJDinPHX · Sep 16, 2014

jtompilot said:
To SJD, we have met at Bullshooters. I will look you up next time I'm in Phoenix and we can a beer and a good time. Looking forward to seeing you and the other guys in PHX.

Do you know if JR(Leil Gay) is still in Mesa?

SJD to jtom, via Bufflohead...(whew)

Sorry I did not recall our ever meeting (nothing new there

)... I have only been to either pool room, but once, in the last few years Tom....I have no idea about JR..but I kinda doubt he is still around, unless he retired too. Do give me a holler, I'm always up for a cocktail or two, if nothing else

Dick

SJDinPHX · Sep 16, 2014

wincardona said:
Bill, I understand how accomplished you are playing 3 cushion, however, this shot is a little too much to ask for a one pocket player with little to none three cushion experience. I noticed that you shared your "technique"on how you execute shots of this kind and I find it very informative. Like you say, and I concur, every shot that is shot is perceived differently, and i'm good with that. Taylor looks at banks the same way "Bugs" did, they believed they owned all bank shots and i'm not quite sure they didn't:lol You on the other hand feel the same about 3 and 4 cushion shots and I also believe you own them as well, which has been evidenced in your 3 cushion history. Tom wasn't challenging your decision on your ability to pull this shot off, however, what he was doing was to reason out the cost of the natural 3 cushion kick compared to the shot you chose and concluded that the loss of accuracy with the shot you chose for a one pocket player was not worth the ball you may have lost by opting to kick. In situations like this one where cue ball control is at it's premium, emphasis should be put on the best way to arrive to a safe position. (at any cost) Even the slightest loss of accuracy in game deciding shots (like this one) is worth the ball you sacrifice to end up in a safe position. Many times I have decided to take an intentional as opposed to trying to arrive in a specific area of the table because I believed I just might not get there with a legal shot. It hurts for an instance, but blundering in situations like these when trying to do something extra (just to save the ball) hurts for a long time However, beauty is only in the eyes of the beholder.

Dr. Bill

To Dr. Bill, from SJD, via Bufflohead;

Billy boy, I am in awe of your amazing skill, as a master politician !...No one could have told someone he was full of sh*t any more gracefully than you told Mr. 3-??...If only I were as good at political correctness as you are, he and I would probably be best bud's..:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

SJD

One Pocket Ghost · Sep 16, 2014

tylerdurden said:
Well, he can sure nudge a couple balls forward on that first foul

tyler...I already addressed this in my initial post...

If Gabe does that, it would do him no good - he's on the first foul - I will just foul back..this tournament has the 3 foul rule in place - he will have to shoot out of the stack first, leaving me some decent type of safety opportunity.

- Ghost

LSJohn · Sep 16, 2014

One Pocket Ghost said:
Similar to the "singles" that Jerry spoke of in the previous post....There's one shot available here that hasn't been seen/mentioned, and it may very well be the shot that I would choose to shoot...as opposed to the other choices here, where imperfect execution will most likely instantly lose the game, one big plus to the following shot is that the success rate of execution is 100%...

I will just softly shoot the 10ball to the bottom rail and have the cueball end up frozen against the stack - and if the angle allows, at the same time I will try and have 10 tie up the 3 and 4 balls so that they are no longer makeable for Gabe...

Next...Gabe can't just touch the cueball and leave me there because he will be on the first foul...and since he won't be able to see the 8ball, he will have no legal shot to get me back behind the stack...

So what can he do?...about the only two shots he will have, is to kick at the 8, or thin a ball at the top of the stack and send the cueball down to the head rail...

Neither of those two shots will trap me, and from either position I will have much better safety opportunities available to me than I had in the previous inning.

- Ghost

PS, Although the shot I just posited isn't as significant the shots of mine that Freddy refers to in the following post..I'm going to take this opportunity to post up this past quote from Freddy - this is an excerpt from the post he made re. his analysis of a 5-6 hour friendly gambling match ($30 a game, our usual bet) that Dr. Bill and I had against each other 2 yrs. ago ------>

I think at the table I would still shoot the 4-railer, but thanks for this. Something we all should have seen and at least considered. (Just the kind of shot Freddy was talking about!)

one pocket guy · Sep 16, 2014

Could Anyone explain why no one thought the long kick at the right side of the 15 was not a good choice? I shoot that kick a lot and wondering if I'm shooting wrong shot.

androd · Sep 16, 2014

One Pocket Ghost said:
Similar to the "singles" that Jerry spoke of in the previous post....There's one shot available here that hasn't been seen/mentioned, and it may very well be the shot that I would choose to shoot...as opposed to the other choices here, where imperfect execution will most likely instantly lose the game, one big plus to the following shot is that the success rate of execution is 100%...

I will just softly shoot the 10ball to the bottom rail and have the cueball end up frozen against the stack - and if the angle allows, at the same time I will try and have 10 tie up the 3 and 4 balls so that they are no longer makeable for Gabe...

Next...Gabe can't just touch the cueball and leave me there because he will be on the first foul...and since he won't be able to see the 8ball, he will have no legal shot to get me back behind the stack...

So what can he do?...about the only two shots he will have, is to kick at the 8, or thin a ball at the top of the stack and send the cueball down to the head rail...

Neither of those two shots will trap me, and from either position I will have much better safety opportunities available to me than I had in the previous inning.

- Ghost

PS, Although the shot I just posited isn't as significant the shots of mine that Freddy refers to in the following post..I'm going to take this opportunity to post up this past quote from Freddy - this is an excerpt from the post he made re. his analysis of a 5-6 hour friendly gambling match ($30 a game, our usual bet) that Dr. Bill and I had against each other 2 yrs. ago ------>

You would force me to kick at the one ball, if the three ball gets to the rail, you'll have created a little problem for yourself.
Rod ----->(gofer)

gulfportdoc · Sep 16, 2014

androd said:
You would force me to kick at the one ball, if the three ball gets to the rail, you'll have created a little problem for yourself.
Rod ----->(gofer)

You might not even have to kick at it...

~Doc

Scrzbill · Sep 16, 2014

If I were a shortstop, it would be three levels above my ability but I shoot this ball with draw every time except once. Once I played a three/four railer off the side stripe. I paid off after the guys next turn.

One Pocket Ghost · Sep 16, 2014

androd said:
You would force me to kick at the one ball, if the three ball gets to the rail, you'll have created a little problem for yourself.
Rod ----->(gofer)

Possibly Rod...but I'll have you 100% jacked with you having to make a bridge over the cluster, so you might not kick the one accurately...and if you did hit it perfect, I will probably kick back, at the striped ball that's above Gabe's pocket.

- Ghost

androd · Sep 16, 2014

One Pocket Ghost said:
Possibly Rod...but I'll have you 100% jacked, so you might not kick the one accurately...and if you did hit it perfect, I will probably kick back, at the striped ball that's above Gabe's pocket.

- Ghost

Good Eye.
Rod.

tylerdurden · Sep 16, 2014

One Pocket Ghost said:
tyler...I already addressed this in my initial post...

If Gabe does that, it would do him no good - he's on the first foul - I will just foul back..this tournament has the 3 foul rule in place - he will have to shoot out of the stack first, leaving me some decent type of safety opportunity.

- Ghost

I was saying it won't be hard to be in a position where he can hit a ball full, send balls at his hole, and stick back in the stack. In other words, all the reasons u don't wanna leave the guy on that side of the balls, it's not like those reasons magically disappear here. What you're saying is it's ok to leave the guy on that side of the stack just because he'll be the first to foul, and that just is not true. As I mentioned, gabe maybe pushes into the balls a little on the first foul, and next thing you know he has shots and the guy on the wrong side of the stack is now on one or two and has nothing to do.

One Pocket Ghost · Sep 16, 2014

tylerdurden said:
and next thing you know he has shots

No, he won't, because I'll keep freezing him against a ball or balls.

Owen vs. Nevel 2008 DCC

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