Break-and-Runs in Old Time One Pocket

[RabbiHippie]

Glenn "The Eufaula Kid" Womack beat Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter in a gambling session by running out the set with three consecutive break-and-runs. They were playing 8-5 winner breaks with Squirrel getting the handicap. I also recall seeing where Minnesota Fats claimed he also made three straight break-and-runs as well.

Which raises the question ... When did the "norm" switch to alternate breaks? Does anybody know what they did at Johnston City?


Original One Pocket Rules Used at Johnston City

 

[gulfportdoc]

I don't recall reading how they played. Steve or Dennis would probably know. My suspicion is that they played winner breaks.

 

[RabbiHippie]

Another thought ... Grady Mathews seems to have been the first person to insist on racking your own. I know he took a moment to explain that to Efren when they played for the first time in the 80's. Squirrel probably racked for Eufaula which would rule out any "monkey business" with the rack behind making a ball on the break three times in a row. Loose pockets on Eufaula's own table wouldn't surprise me, though.

Surely a safety break was the norm for One Pocket long before the 1950's, although Eufaula might have taken a gamble and broke wide-open on a table he was familiar with. Speculation?

Eufaula and Squirrel renegotiated the spot for their second meeting to 8-6 winner breaks. That time, Squirrel cleaned him out. Giving a two-ball spot to Squirrel would have been a hard hurdle for Eufaula to overcome once Squirrel got a chance at the table. Nowadays, they usually have a different spot depending on who breaks.

The whole story is on page 234 of Winning One Pocket by Eddie Robin.

 

[Jimmy B]

Glenn "The Eufaula Kid" Womack beat Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter in a gambling session by running out the set with three consecutive break-and-runs. They were playing 8-5 winner breaks with Squirrel getting the handicap. I also recall seeing where Minnesota Fats claimed he also made three straight break-and-runs as well.

Which raises the question ... When did the "norm" switch to alternate breaks? Does anybody know what they did at Johnston City?

There should be several people in here who know this. You can always DM Keith Thompson. He still participates here a little bit.....

 

[gulfportdoc]

Cardone would know. But he rarely checks in anymore.

 

[RabbiHippie]

Think I found the answer to my own question. At least by 1965, Johnston City was using an "alternate break" format.

Four best of 7. Lag for break and alternate breaks thereafter, scratch in pocket or failure to drive ball to rail after contact constitutes a foul, penealized by loss of one ball. Three consecutive fouls penalized by loss of game.

This is from the National Billiard News issue from December, 1965. Harold Worst was All-Around winner in his final appearance before dying with cancer and Larry "Boston Shorty" Johnson won the One Pocket division.

 

[Scrzbill]

Back in da day, the pockets were buckets. Different tables and definitely different balls. I remember one guy, “Whiskey Bill”, carried his own ivory cue ball. Winner break was a gambling prop. Even then in that area, one pocket was rotated break, except when the negotiation said different. I went two years and still was in awe for years, until the DCC in Louisville.

 

[Tom Wirth]

Back in the late 70's I played a guy alternate breaks. Make a ball on the break and keep shooting.
I made a ball on the break in the first game and ran out. On his break he sold out a shot and I ran out again. The third game, my break, I did it again and ran 8 and out. His break, and again he sold out a shot, and again I ran 8 and out. Four games gone and all he did was break twice!

I wonder if anyone has matched that feat!

Tom​

 

[sorackem]

Back in da day, the pockets were buckets. Different tables and definitely different balls.

Love ya, Kentucky.

s/n A few years ago at the beginning of some tough years, just after I fled Washington, I ended up working for a solar company back in my home state of CA. On the heels of that hire was the holiday season and a Christmas party at (? surprised I couldn't remember it) at the SF bay.

I went for the welcome and employee openers and after showing my face for a bit, went in search of a pool table.
I did eventually find two. Two 8 footers in a sunken/lowered/basement kinda room that sat a few steps below a bar.

No coin - I think drop pocket. I played a bit having a *sorry* ****ing horrible time. It really (as I remember) didn't take me long to realize that the cb weighed about 1/2 again what the ob's weighed. After that, and it seems way weird now, but - I couldn't miss or not get shape.

The thing about it is - honestly - right about then some party-goers from the solar-xmas party found their way down and I, of course, invited a game of 8 ball and beat the next 5 or 6 comers before I got too freaked-out and self-conscious (bit) to continue.

 

[RabbiHippie]

Back in the late 70's I played a guy alternate breaks. Make a ball on the break and keep shooting.
I made a ball on the break in the first game and ran out. On his break he sold out a shot and I ran out again. The third game, my break, I did it again and ran 8 and out. His break, and again he sold out a shot, and again I ran 8 and out. Four games gone and all he did was break twice!

I wonder if anyone has matched that feat!

Tom​

I think it puts you in good company, @Tom Wirth!

Here's a quote from my book about Jack Hill (inventor or co-inventor of One Pocket, if you will) running 36-balls in an exhibition playing "One Pocket to Five."

But consider poor Joe Reid who lost 50-9 to Jack Hill in 1934 despite a "One Pocket to Five" handicap.

That night, Joe had to sit in the chair and watch Jack Hill run 36 consecutive balls in his pocket–a feat comparable, in my opinion, to Gabe Owen's making 60 balls in five racks at Derby City.

Now consider that the locals didn't throw just anyone in the pit against the barnstorming marvels. They invariably picked the best shooter in town. Ol' Joe wasn't some inept guy off the street who didn't know the butt end of a cue from the tip. He was the shortstop at the peak of the local pyramid.

The big difference between Jack Hill's run and yours is that he was breaking and running racks Straight Pool style. Running four racks (32-balls) from a One Pocket-style safety break might arguably be more difficult.

 

[Island Drive]

Glenn "The Eufaula Kid" Womack beat Marshall "Squirrel" Carpenter in a gambling session by running out the set with three consecutive break-and-runs. They were playing 8-5 winner breaks with Squirrel getting the handicap. I also recall seeing where Minnesota Fats claimed he also made three straight break-and-runs as well.

Which raises the question ... When did the "norm" switch to alternate breaks? Does anybody know what they did at Johnston City?

View attachment 442806
Original One Pocket Rules Used at Johnston City

I'm gonna read the other posts, but I was there every night for the last 4 years.... and the raid.
It was Or? I didn't watch that game much at 19 yr old 14.1 was my preference, but maybe/winner break thinking of mine I was formed by Ronnie Allen in his prime, to me the ''Jack Nicklaus'' of our game. And the first time I listened'' to em, cost me $100, he made sure I was down wind. win Ronnie sent me on the wrong tack to the fini$h line.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I believe this to be '66. Race to 4. The rules posted in post #1 are from the 2nd year, 1962. This year rules introduced the 3 consecutive foul rule. These rules were posted by Larry a few years back, a great fine. Also the Lag Rule changed from '61, whereas the winner of the lag had option to break, but maintained the scoring pocket choice. This must of been a rule from Hayden Lingos OP game rule pamphlet. In '62 they went to winner of the lag has option of break and breaker chooses their pocket. The '61 Lag Rule was adopted by the Official BCA rules in '67. I very much like that rule.

These rules I surmise are spectator guide lines, so they can somewhat follow the game as they watch it, and were published in their local newspaper, and as a spectator hand out.

I would surmise that the tournament was played by an alternating break format. My reasoning is because the winner of the 1st. game would of had such a huge advantage in this short race to 4. These knowledgeable OP players would know this, so I can not see the players agreeing to winner breaks.

Enjoy! Whitey

 

[baby huey]

We haven't spoken too much in the forums about Glenn Womack "Eufala Kid" but I saw him play one time in maybe 1965 when he was way past his prime. I was 17 yrs old and didn't really understand One Pocket just yet. As I understand it, he was the best One Pocket Player prior to RA's arrival on the scene. I do doubt him being the best with the likes of Eddie Taylor, Clem, Cornbread and Rags Fitzpatrick also playing top shelf. Our old friend John Henderson knew Eufala and told me he could really play so the above story has merit.

 

[vapros]

Whitey, I would take issue with this. It seems to be a belief held by many players, and I would like to see a reasonable explanation for that. Maybe I am the one who does not understand.

If you win the lag you will always be the breaker in a hill/hill game, regardless of the length of the race. Thanks -

I would surmise that the tournament was played by an alternating break format. My reasoning is because the winner of the 1st. game would of had such a huge advantage in this short race to 4. These knowledgeable OP players would know this, so I can not see the players agreeing to winner breaks.

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

Whitey, I would take issue with this. It seems to be a belief held by many players, and I would like to see a reasonable explanation for that. Maybe I am the one who does not understand.

If you win the lag you will always be the breaker in a hill/hill game, regardless of the length of the race. Thanks -

Vapros, no debate here, I agree with your statement, and I never stated anything to the contrary. RabbiHippie is wondering if anyone knows if Johnston City OP event was a winner break or an alternative break, Post 6 confirms alternate break. Thanks to Jimmy B. for making me aware of this post 6.
Whitey

 

[Jimmy B]

Vapros, no debate here, I agree with your statement, and I never stated anything to the contrary. RabbiHippie is wondering if anyone knows if Johnston City OP event was a winner break or an alternative break, I only added my thoughts that it was probably an alternating break format, but this is not based on fact. We are waiting for some kind of confirmation!
Whitey

I thought Rabbi had already determined that they alternated,,, post 6....

 

[Dennis "Whitey" Young]

I thought Rabbi had already determined that they alternated,,, post 6....

Thanks, Jimmy!
I'll correct my previous post.
Whitey