petie
Verified Member
That 5's coming straight back with the CB staying in the upper left corner.
I like this. I almost prefer missing it and leaving it hanging.
That 5's coming straight back with the CB staying in the upper left corner.
In order for Daulton to do what you say may be available, both the cue ball and the 5 ball will have to end up pretty much in a exact position for your shot to be available. Plus he must defend against the cross corner bank on the 9 ball.
If you would be kind enough to show the position you're talking about, I would like to discuss it further with you, and all that would be interested. But i'm sorry I can't visualize what position, or what type of positions you're afraid of, in regard to the return options off the 5 ball bank.
Keep in mind when i'm banking the 5 ball i'm dragging the cue ball across the top rail, staying as close to the top rail as possible. I figure to travel to around the diamond before the pocket with the shot (cue ball) really can't see what good options Daulton will have from there. The strength with the 5 ball bank option is controlling both the 5 ball and the cue ball, leaving the 5 ball as close to the pocket as possible while keeping the cue ball as close to the top rail as possible. Naturally you would like to travel as far west as you can with the cue ball, but the shot should not be compromised with only that thought in mind. Try to envision the cue ball ending up 6" to 10" to the left of the center diamond, from there what can Daulton do to Charlie to put him in trouble?
Dr. Bill
Playing one pocket there are going to be many times when we aren't going to be able to predict the future, because of all the uncertainties that could develop Understanding this we should then try to envision a plan, or strategy to put in effect that will offer us the best chance of winning, sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. But what we do do, is learn from the decisions that are made, and in the future use that experience to try to devise a better plan for situations that we are confronted with. But what we should try to avoid is that in situations where there are too many uncertainties that may follow a certain shot, don't think about what bad could happen, think about what the good things that could happen are. What you're doing here is trading off the negative thoughts that are burdening your thinking process, with positive thoughts that will aid you in winning.This position obviously favors Daulton, plus it's a very threatening position for Bryant. The way I see it the urgency is there to either challenge it (going up table)or trying to change it by either shooting the 14 ball or moving balls from his side, immediately. I like challenging it because you can win with this option, if executed well. Plus Daulton can't look to play aggressively from the position I put him in.
There's a certain amount of gamble in everything we do, and it holds true here, in this position as well. If you're looking for a guarantee you're not going to get one here, there's no iron clad solution to this problem Charlie has. I say challenge him and take your chances from there.
Dr. Bill
Playing one pocket there are going to be many times when we aren't going to be able to predict the future, because of all the uncertainties that could develop Understanding this we should then try to envision a plan, or strategy to put in effect that will offer us the best chance of winning, sometimes we win and sometimes we don't. But what we do do, is learn from the decisions that are made, and in the future use that experience to try to devise a better plan for situations that we are confronted with. But what we should try to avoid is that in situations where there are too many uncertainties that may follow a certain shot, don't think about what bad could happen, think about what the good things that could happen are. What you're doing here is trading off the negative thoughts that are burdening your thinking process, with positive thoughts that will aid you in winning.
In this situation we really can't pin point where the 5 ball and cue ball will end up, but we should understand is that Daulton will be now defending a position, as opposed to developing a stronger one.
Dr. Bill
P.S. Co-commentator B. Hall said he would not shoot the 5 ball bank. He said there's nothing to shoot if you make it.
Bryant did cut the 14 in but did not get a next shot.
P.S. Co-commentator B. Hall said he would not shoot the 5 ball bank. He said there's nothing to shoot if you make it.
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Dr. Bill, of course I am not disputing what you've written. I just want to advocate a little more for my way of thinking in this situation. We haven't seen the play leading up to how Daulton left Hillbilly, but we can reasonably assume one of two things:
1) He is trying to bait Charlie into shooting at something or ( not likely )
2) He missed his intended leave ( quite possibly )
Either way, Daulton has made a mistake - a pretty rare event. Charlie is not likely to be the beneficiary of another anytime soon, so he must cowboy up here and punish Daulton. The best way to do that is to get on a decent run of balls, which he can do if he banks the 5 to make it. ( yes, if he feels he can make the bank and get position ) The only real iffy part of that shot is the speed to get over and down far enough to see the 14. ( not so, position looks difficult, and the bank isn't automatic )Even if Charlie doesn't get there, he still ought to sink the 5 with the cb now uptable of all of Daulton's danger balls. From there he can really turn things around with a multiple-ball move.( I don't understand anything you said after you said "even if he doesn't get there. ) But IF he does get on the 14, it is off to the races - maybe 3, 4 or more additional balls.( if he scores the 5 ball and ends up with position, he has earned at least 3 or 4 balls for his excellent play, but no guarantee to get them )
I understand the strength of moving the 5 down and leaving Daulton shooting out of the top left corner, but boy does Bryant ever have a good chance at taking over and winning the game from where he is right now by shooting at his hole. ( that all depends on how the shooter feels about his chances. )
Now that's my story and I'm sticking to it. ( i'm sorry )
Skin
I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB styleLater in the same game. It's Bryant's shot again. What would you do?
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I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB style
Sorry to keep picking the scab off this thing, but I have set this up and shot it a dozen times this morning, and I have to repeat - I don't want to see Shannon come to the table, shooting from the upper left corner. I really do not. I'm thinning the 10 ball and caroming into the 3 ball, and not hitting the 6 ball at all. Never had a single bad result. The cue ball went into Charlie's corner every time, but never scratched. If the five ball had been there, who knows? Absent the 9 ball, the 3 ball goes into my pocket, or stops in the jaws. I'm pretty sure Shannon could have hit it as well as I did.
I mentioned the possibility of going rail first, but if I had looked more closely I would have seen that this is not an option from the upper left corner.
How about some volunteers who have access to a table? Shoot it a few times and give us a report. Thanks.
Sorry to keep picking the scab off this thing, but I have set this up and shot it a dozen times this morning, and I have to repeat - I don't want to see Shannon come to the table, shooting from the upper left corner. I really do not.( If there is a certain spot that Shannon can execute your shot from, shooting out of the far top corner it can't be a very large area. Surely we as opponents can walk up to the head end of the table and figure out, where or where not to put Shannon ) I'm thinning the 10 ball and caroming into the 3 ball, and not hitting the 6 ball at all. Never had a single bad result. The cue ball went into Charlie's corner every time, but never scratched. If the five ball had been there, who knows? Absent the 9 ball, the 3 ball goes into my pocket, or stops in the jaws. I'm pretty sure Shannon could have hit it as well as I did.
I mentioned the possibility of going rail first, but if I had looked more closely I would have seen that this is not an option from the upper left corner.
How about some volunteers who have access to a table? Shoot it a few times and give us a report. Thanks.
You're correct with everything you have said, drawing the shot with the distance and angle this shot presents is not conducive in controlling both the 5 ball and the cue ball. I initially assumed that by looking at the shot from my computer screen that it could be done, and suggested the shot by the way it looked to me. But after I set up the shot and experimented with it I concluded that it was clearly the wrong way to play the bank,for the reasons I explained in the preceding post. Yes this shot must be executed with the way you described, by staying near the center axis of the cue ball 1/2 tip inside english, with a fuller hit. This method will enable you to both, control the speed of the 5 ball and also leave you with position on the 14 ball if you pocket the bank. Plus if you don't pocket the bank, Daulton must respond with a defensive move. Naturally this is based off of not using the 14 ball as an option.I know Charlie already shot from here, but to go back to the 5-ball bank for a second... When I look at the 5-ball bank, to me it looks like if Charlie was to play it pocket speed, which is what pretty near all the 5-ball bank advocates are suggesting, then the left english needed to help spin the cue ball over to the left corner would probably make you miss the bank too. That's okay if all you are doing is playing the cue ball and placing the 5-ball in your own threat zone of course, but that means abandoning the idea of getting position to run some balls with the shot, imo. If you really are playing the 5 to make it, you would have to keep nearer the center axis of the cue ball, with the result that you would not drift that far to the left with your cue ball -- unless you whack it JB style
( I have made it a habit to look at possible ending positions with the cue ball, in terms of what options I would leave for my opponent, that's a major part of the decision making process. And in this instance you only have to defend against the 10 ball as it lays only an inch from the side rail. From this position you would need to be inside an inch or parallel with the 10 ball for your shot to be a viable option. The way I looked at it, the odds of landing there are slim, especially if your aware of not where to land, which made the 5 ball bank a viable option. (providing it was executable )I am not commenting on the 5 ball bank at all. I refer back to post #11, which recommended banking the 5 and dragging the cue ball far enough to take advantage of the possible blockers. Assuming this has been done, my shot off the 10 and 3 balls is very workable from a fairly large area. ( this is precisely my point, the area needed to defend against your return shot is not large enough imo to be a concern ) I can send the cue ball toward Charlie's pocket, and it might be great or pretty bad, depending on where the cue ball contacts the 5. Either way, Shannon would deal with a problem cluster on his side, and the 9 ball might make it better, with a 3 ball tickie. ( If you happen to be left with that type of a situation I would agree with you that it's a viable option, but the likelihood of that type of a position developing imo shouldn't be enough for you to not shoot a shot like the 5 ball bank if it was doable. )I'm just saying that before playing the 5 ball bank, one should try to see Shannon's options when he returns to the table, and offering my opinion about leaving him in the upper left corner. I would rather not put him there. I'm not being obstinate, or trying to sell anything to anyone. What might our other posters think he would do from the upper left corner?
What might our other posters think he would do from the upper left corner?