Do you put 'em back?

[chicagomike]

So today I'm playing $20 1p with a friend and knowledgeable player and i'm up 1 game after about 3 hours. Score is 2-0/me and he owes 1 from and earlier foul for which a penny was placed at his hole as a reminder.

He gets a good shot at his pocket and runs 8 balls, but rakes the remaining balls prior to shooting his 9th ball which he needs to win the game. I remind him of the ball owed at which he point he asks if he could replace the raked balls to near their original positions. I say it's loss of game for which is the common rule.

I wasn't trying to be sneaky, but I see that as the rule... just like 3 fouling a friend or using a ball to be spotted as a forgotten advantage. He breaks down his cue and is upset because it's friendly twenty dollar action between friends and he says he would have allowed me to replace the balls.

Anyway, I hope there are not permanent hard feelings and decided to put it in the hands of 1p.org members...if the majority consensus seems to be the balls should have been replaced and the game continued(On the basis of friendly $20 1p between friends) I will be willing to return the $20, but in the future the raking balls rule will stand

 

[beatle]

i would let anyone other than someone i hated replace the balls. its not the way to win and it kills your action. anyway is it loss of game to mess up the balls. isnt replacing them to the satisfaction of your opponent okay.

 

[chicagomike]

i would let anyone other than someone i hated replace the balls. its not the way to win and it kills your action. anyway is it loss of game to mess up the balls. isnt replacing them to the satisfaction of your opponent okay.

Thanks Beatle...sounds like that's 1 vote for return the $20. To adjust 1 or 2 balls that were moved unintentionally is typically acceptable, but not when multiple balls are taken and grouped to be racked.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

So today I'm playing $20 1p with a friend and knowledgeable player and i'm up 1 game after about 3 hours. Score is 2-0/me and he owes 1 from and earlier foul for which a penney was placed at his hole as a reminder.

He gets a good shot at his pocket and runs 8 balls, but rakes the remaining balls prior to shooting his 9th ball which he needs to win the game. I remind him of the ball owed at which he point he asks if he could replace the raked balls to near their original positions. I say it's loss of game for which is the common rule.

I wasn't trying to be sneaky, but I see that as the rule. He breaks down his cue and is upset because it's friendly twenty dollar action between friends and he says he would have allowed me to replace the balls.

Anyway, I hope there are not permanent hard feelings and decided to put it in the hands of 1p.org members...if the majority consensus seems to be the balls should have been replaced and the game continued I will be willing to return the $20, but in the future the raking balls rule will stand

Mike,

This situation came up for me probably 25 years ago. I wasn't playing a friend but we were not enemies either. Playing for $20 a game also. I scratched on the break and owed one as a result. A couple of shots into the game I ran 8 and out and raked the balls down. He then reminded me that I owed one for the scratch on the break.(No penny on rail back then) I was prepared to pay him as I considered it a loss on my part for raking the balls down. I needed 9 and only got 8. I lose plain and simple.

But he had the class and decency(not that that's what's required) to say that I would have got 9 anyway and he paid off. I always respected him for that even though it was for cheap and we were not particularly friends. I made up my mind then and there that if a situation ever came up where I could cut him a break, then I would.

Your friend needs to play by the rules of the game, that's what they are there for. He needed 9 and only got 8. He loses if he rakes the balls down. It's that simple. He needs to forget the friendship part and gamble like a man. And if it ever comes up in the future you might consider letting it slide so the guy learns a cheap lesson.

You may also want to remind him that if he is claiming "friendship" as a reason for you to let him slide, then he should not be playing you for money. If he was a friend he wouldn't use it to his advantage.

I never did that again in my life after that one time. I learned my lesson from a guy willing to teach it.

Dennis

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

i would let anyone other than someone i hated replace the balls. its not the way to win and it kills your action. anyway is it loss of game to mess up the balls. isnt replacing them to the satisfaction of your opponent okay.

beatle,

Yes it is loss of game to rake the balls down because you think you have won the game but have not. At least when you are gambling.

And replacing them is not a satisfactory solution. You rake'em down, you lose if you don't have enough. It's that simple.

Dennis

 

[chicagomike]

Mike,

This situation came up for me probably 25 years ago. I wasn't playing a friend but we were not enemies either. Playing for $20 a game also. I scratched on the break and owed one as a result. A couple of shots into the game I ran 8 and out and raked the balls down. He then reminded me that I owed one for the scratch on the break.(No penny on rail back then) I was prepared to pay him as I considered it a loss on my part for raking the balls down. I needed 9 and only got 8. I lose plain and simple.

But he had the class and decency(not that that's what's required) to say that I would have got 9 anyway and he paid off. I always respected him for that even though it was for cheap and we were not particularly friends. I made up my mind then and there that if a situation ever came up where I could cut him a break, then I would.

Your friend needs to play by the rules of the game, that's what they are there for. He needed 9 and only got 8. He loses if he rakes the balls down. It's that simple. He needs to forget the friendship part and gamble like a man. And if it ever comes up in the future you might consider letting it slide so the guy learns a cheap lesson.

You may also want to remind him that if he is claiming "friendship" as a reason for you to let him slide, then he should not be playing you for money. If he was a friend he wouldn't use it to his advantage.

I never did that again in my life after that one time. I learned my lesson from a guy willing to teach it.

Dennis

Good input Dennis...sounds like bottom line is rules are rules regardless of the relationship(and I do get the moral of the story)...Not that it matters, but if I remember correctly most of the remaining balls were up table at the time of the raking. Like you, I've raked 'em prematurely and considered it "my bad"....and paid off.

 

[Cowboy Dennis]

Good input Dennis...sounds like bottom line is rules are rules regardless of the relationship(and I do get the moral of the story)...Not that it matters, but if I remember correctly most of the remaining balls were up table at the time of the raking.

Mike,

The main point for your "friend" to consider is that it is now up to you to decide what to do. He messed up and should consider it a loss unless you forgive his error. He should accept that like a man. Replacing the balls should not even be considered as far as I'm concerned. I would never do that either way, whether it was a friend or not.

Dennis

 

[chicagomike]

Mike,

The main point for your "friend" to consider is that it is now up to you to decide what to do. He messed up and should consider it a loss unless you forgive his error. He should accept that like a man. Replacing the balls should not even be considered as far as I'm concerned. I would never do that either way, whether it was a friend or not.

Dennis

Ok Dennis...sounds like that's one for his loss.

 

[chicagomike]

Friend,

If you read this thread...I just thought it was an interesting topic and thought it would be a good one to put out to the jury...nothing more.

 

[Skin]

So today I'm playing $20 1p with a friend and knowledgeable player and i'm up 1 game after about 3 hours. Score is 2-0/me and he owes 1 from and earlier foul for which a penny was placed at his hole as a reminder.

He gets a good shot at his pocket and runs 8 balls, but rakes the remaining balls prior to shooting his 9th ball which he needs to win the game. I remind him of the ball owed at which he point he asks if he could replace the raked balls to near their original positions. I say it's loss of game for which is the common rule.

I wasn't trying to be sneaky, but I see that as the rule... just like 3 fouling a friend or using a ball to be spotted as a forgotten advantage. He breaks down his cue and is upset because it's friendly twenty dollar action between friends and he says he would have allowed me to replace the balls.

Anyway, I hope there are not permanent hard feelings and decided to put it in the hands of 1p.org members...if the majority consensus seems to be the balls should have been replaced and the game continued(On the basis of friendly $20 1p between friends) I will be willing to return the $20, but in the future the raking balls rule will stand

Mike, I agree that your friend technically loses this game for raking the balls. Had it been me in your situation though, rather than replace the balls I think I would have made a proposition to him since it was an honest mistake and he is a friend. Shoot a spot shot from the kitchen. He makes it, it counts as number 9 and he wins. He misses, he loses. This is reasonable and, of course, is something you two could still do now and remain friends.

Skin < values friendships over money any day

 

[lll]

i would have said i won because the rule is the rule. when your friend tried to make you feel guilty i might have offered to start a new game. nobody wins the last one. for compromising i like skins idea. your friend should really thank you for enforcing the rules since it was a cheap lesson that could have cost him big time in the future. he'll probably never forget when he owes one again. my vote is with you.

 

[NH Steve]

The reason for the rule is that with multiple balls, it is so hard to replace them exactly -- that could be very contentious! But like many rules, they are there to settle disputes -- promptly, to avoid argument (if the rules are available to both read ). Between two friends, it falls more into a personal gesture. Do you want to risk losing the friend for a while (often no, but sometimes, maybe yes)? Some players -- maybe like Mike -- want to always play by the rules, without emotion, but just because that is the way to play and they apply to both parties. There's nothing wrong with that.

I would say for me it would depend on the friend, and the score

 

[lfigueroa]

So today I'm playing $20 1p with a friend and knowledgeable player and i'm up 1 game after about 3 hours. Score is 2-0/me and he owes 1 from and earlier foul for which a penny was placed at his hole as a reminder.

He gets a good shot at his pocket and runs 8 balls, but rakes the remaining balls prior to shooting his 9th ball which he needs to win the game. I remind him of the ball owed at which he point he asks if he could replace the raked balls to near their original positions. I say it's loss of game for which is the common rule.

I wasn't trying to be sneaky, but I see that as the rule... just like 3 fouling a friend or using a ball to be spotted as a forgotten advantage. He breaks down his cue and is upset because it's friendly twenty dollar action between friends and he says he would have allowed me to replace the balls.

Anyway, I hope there are not permanent hard feelings and decided to put it in the hands of 1p.org members...if the majority consensus seems to be the balls should have been replaced and the game continued(On the basis of friendly $20 1p between friends) I will be willing to return the $20, but in the future the raking balls rule will stand

I'm pretty sure I know who the "friend" is, so I think I will pass on commenting directly.

But indirectly, years ago, when I was learning to play 1pocket upon my arrival in St. Louis, I was playing a friend some $20 1pocket. I was running the balls and I accidentally moved a ball with my bridge hand and quickly moved it back to where I thought it had been. The friend called, "Foul. I get a choice of leaving it or moving it back." I was stunned. Incredulous. I said, "You're kidding -- right?!" He cackled and said, "No. It's the rule."

A few games later, I did the exact same thing: bumped a ball and instinctively moved it back. "Foul" the friend said.

Talk about steamed.

But the thing is, I learned my lesson and never, to this day, have made the same mistake again. AND it was my pleasure, several years later, to play this same friend. He was jacked up over a ball and moved it a bit with his bridge hand and moved it back.



"Foul."

Lou Figueroa

 

[fred bentivegna]

Pay it off

Pay it off

It's loss of game unless you are playing with one of your parents. However, any indication from you that could have been construed as conceding the game, changes the decision. Picking up the rack, breaking your stick down, paying off, by putting the money on the table after the 8th ball is unethical and anything like that in tourn play constitutes a game concession.

the Beard

I have paid this error off many times

 

[vapros]

One-pocket rules are there for a reason. If you start moving the remaining balls on the table, the game is over. If you haven't made enough to win, you lose. I don't think it would be a good idea to stretch this point and try to relace the pattern, as this could certainly open another disagreement, besides being a departure from the rules.

Friendship is a whole 'nother smoke and should be dealt with separately. Do what you think you should, but don't call it one-pocket.

And always put the marker(s) on the rail. If he doesn't do it, do it for him. If he has trouble seeing the coin, use a ham sandwich, or something he can't miss.

 

[fred bentivegna]

Snooze you lose

Snooze you lose

One-pocket rules are there for a reason. If you start moving the remaining balls on the table, the game is over. If you haven't made enough to win, you lose. I don't think it would be a good idea to stretch this point and try to relace the pattern, as this could certainly open another disagreement, besides being a departure from the rules.

Friendship is a whole 'nother smoke and should be dealt with separately. Do what you think you should, but don't call it one-pocket.

And always put the marker(s) on the rail. If he doesn't do it, do it for him. If he has trouble seeing the coin, use a ham sandwich, or something he can't miss.

I never put a coin or anything on the rail. We always played, snooze you lose. If the guy ever slept the scratch you didnt have to put it up. Kept you more on your toes. For the last 25 years after I make the last ball, I never touch another until my opponent concedes in some way. Old school.

Beard

 

[androd]

We don't need no stinking rules. sociable pool between reasonable people should have no disagreements only discussions. I never win a discussion and never lose a customer, same way in business. The second time on anything vaguely similar I never lose the discussion. If it causes an argument then we wern't really reasonable.
Rod.
PS; Playing with a stranger, it's always been a loss.

 

[NH Steve]

I never put a coin or anything on the rail. We always played, snooze you lose. If the guy ever slept the scratch you didnt have to put it up. Kept you more on your toes. For the last 25 years after I make the last ball, I never touch another until my opponent concedes in some way. Old school.

Beard

I like waiting til the opponent rakes the balls too, but have certainly cost myself games by raking them too soon as well. Another thing you can do is to begin to pick your eight balls out of the pocket or tray and place them on the table, but WITHOUT DISTURBING the balls that remain on the table. That gives your opponent a chance to make their move one way or the other. Raking the balls is always a little risky...

 

[chicagomike]

Looks like the verdict is shaping up to be it's clearly an oversight on the part of my opponent resulting in a loss... I think the $20 price tag will stand. I expect we will play again and expect the same should I rake prematurely.

 

[androd]

I like waiting til the opponent rakes the balls too, but have certainly cost myself games by raking them too soon as well. Another thing you can do is to begin to pick your eight balls out of the pocket or tray and place them on the table, but WITHOUT DISTURBING the balls that remain on the table. That gives your opponent a chance to make their move one way or the other. Raking the balls is always a little risky...

Steve, Thats a sinister move, and would look like a concession, and not in the spirit of fair play.
Rod.